http://www.canarianweekly.com/government-tough-illegal-holiday-lets/
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2011/11/17/crack-down-on-illegal-holiday-lettings-in-the-canaries/
http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/inspectors-to-find-and-fine-owners-of-residential-apartments-who-let-commercially.html "Owners recommended to check BOC to see if they have been fined"http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2011/160/001.html
http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/illegal-holiday-let-inspections-and-fines-situation-continued.html " 7,000 fines have been levied on owners all across the Canaries, on every island".
Here we go again.
If anyone can come up with any better illustration why politicians shouldn't be left on their own with sharp objects, this is it.
I've watched this subject come up in the forum over the last couple of years, and it makes me streefully sick to my stomach every time it come up. How can politicians be so completely thoughtless, stupid, so short-sighted and so utterly inept it staggers me. Can they not see the utter devastation that this sort of lunacy brings.
Licence it, and they'll earn massive amounts from it. They'll earn tens, hundreds of millions from it, all over Spain bringing all the benefits the taxes would bring. Every villa owner I speak to says they want a licence, some are absolutely desperate for a licence, but they can't get one. They would pay through the nose for it.
Apart from the obvious first line casualties regarding the devastation to the local economy of bars, restaurants and shops I take a slightly wider view. Since you can't legally rent out a holiday home out and you will be fined massively if you try to , does anyone think they will ever sell another house on the islands?
Whoops, that takes care of every estate agent, bank lending department and notary.
Why build any more if you can't sell them.
Whoops, there goes the local property developers and local builders and labourers.
If no-one is in the house, there is no wear and tear so why have any improvements done to their houses.
Whoops, there goes builders, joiners, kitchen fitters and plumbers
Can't rent out houses for a holiday, so no houses need cleaning.
Whoops, there goes property managers, letting agents and cleaners.
No tourists to drive around the island
Whoops, there goes local car hire.
No-one in any cars?
Bye bye all our tourist attarctions and local employment at places like La lajita and Baku
All they are doing is criminalising vast swathes of otherwise law-abiding people who want to contribute to the local economy, helping everyone live. But can't because the stupid government wont allow them to.
There are millions of houses all over Spain that need selling and allowing buyers to get licences would help this massive Government burden. The governments yearly wealth tax yield would increases. Banks would lend more, so more tax for the Spanish government
I'm flabbergasted, sick, worried. This does nothing but re-inforce my utter revile-ing of politicians and the authorities in general and make me more determined to absolutely carry on as normal and ignore them.
I always come back to the same conclusion : Are the politicians who are opposed to licencing backed by the big hotel chains?
Politicians caused the problems we are in.
God, I absolutely detest them for the upset they cause.
I totally agree. I do not let my bungalow out because it is illegal. It is good though that Property websites are at least letting people know in advance of purchasing now that it is illegal to let property out. If I had known about the law I would have never purchased on the Island. You live and learn.
I think this law is illegal. If any owners are threatened with fines then they have a good case to band together to take the Spanish Government to the European Courts. Mind you, I don't think any individual owners will be fined. Too many and too much hassle. Letting out your bungalow to friends and family is not illegal Fifi - know what I mean?
Friends and family are fine Florence so long as you do not advertise anywhere.It has been before the EU courts before as far as I can remember. There are loads of people being fined Florence, have a look at the BOC.
I can't see the multitude of owners on the various websites rolling over and accepting this. There has already been a scandal with home selling on preserved land in mainland Spain and I can't see the authorities having the inclination to dish up another hoo ha. They are trying to woo more buyers - not put them off. And it is an illegal law. I am convinced of that.
No one has to accept anything. Its the way of the land and the law has been around for years but not implemented until recently inorder to draw in more funds. Its up to the owners to find out what is going on. Personally I just wont take the risk.
And fifi, that is what is completely wrong with the situation mate. Why SHOULDN'T you legally be able to rent your house out to whoever you choose?
This law is an ass and, like I said, it just criminalises tens or hundreds of thousands of people.
The problem is that no private individual can object to the law for fear of identification and the subsequent reprisals. The vast majority of people want licences, they are prepared to pay for them, they would pay tax on their earnings. I don't want to be doing anything illegal but have very little choice.
If I had known I couldn't rent my property out legally I would never, ever, have came to the islands. I would not have uprooted my family for a different, more peaceful way of life. I wouldn't have have put all my children in the schools here or attempted to build a life here.
It is madness, utter lunacy not to allow people to even be given the opportunity to de-criminalise themselves.
I think a class legal action along the lines of illegal restraint of trade will eventually be presented to the European Court of Human Rights as the ultimate solution and hopefully kick these stupid people into touch.
All politicians/authorities want to do is bully people around and have some sort of threat to hang over peoples heads so they do as they are told. It is shown time and time again that things are generally better when politicians are excluded from a decision making process. Let people decide for themselves what they want to do.
Does anyone know why licences aren't actually granted? What reasons are given?
quote:
Originally posted by alanadale
Does anyone know why licences aren't actually granted? What reasons are given?
alanadale wrote
"I always come back to the same conclusion : Are the politicians who are opposed to licencing backed by the big hotel chains?"Sorry had to edit this didn't realise at the time that the asker was the same person who had already replied [:D]
While it is madness the legislation has been in place since 1996, its just that the Spanish Government chose not to implement/enforce it. I know of a few owners in Tenerife who bought in good faith on residential complexes and have been issued with fines, the authorities have been visiting complexes and trawling holiday letting sites including owners direct.
How long has the legislation that says you can't get a license been in place?
As long as you have adequate public sector liability insurance, pay your tax and are legal, I cant see why the government continue to interfere......
ZappaRocks, this is from the janetanscombe blog that fifi has posted at the top
"Firstly, the Ayuntamiento has rejected any proposal to change the classification of land to mixed or touristic. Secondly, however, it wouldn't matter if they had agreed because Turismo has said, explicitly and emphatically, that under Ley 19, 2003, there is a moratorium on touristic licences which prohibits the grant of any licence other than to 5 star hotels"
Fuefairy,
God only knows why they interfere. The governments job should be to help people,not hinder them. they should licence it and produce a set of regulations for a villa owner to follow for fire, disabled access etc etc.
They'ld know who was renting, who to apply a licence fee to and who to tax. They would raise many, many times the amount they think they will raise through fines and penalties, without anywhere near the resistance. It would be a self-perpetuating cash cow for them, completely dependent on the success of the island which is what the majority of people want.
Business would thrive because more people would be here and local tradesmen would flourish because there would be businesses to service.
QuoteOriginally posted by alanadale
And fifi, that is what is completely wrong with the situation mate. Why SHOULDN'T you legally be able to rent your house out to whoever you choose?
Hopefully in time it will be sorted out. The different fines are being discussed on some of the other Forums if anyone wants a look. "The fines listed on apartments owners are
1. No book of complaints 8,500e
2. No notice of complaints book 8,500e
3. Touristic explotation 1500e"
http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23-The-Tenerife-illegal-lettings-thread/page198
"God only knows why they interfere. The governments job should be to help people,not hinder them."
The governments are just front ends for corporations these days and while it's difficult enough to have transparency in government it's impossible with corporations, try a freedom of information act and see where it gets you. They in turn are owned by other corporations as shareholders and worse still they own each other, ever wonder why a MacDonalds sits outside a particular hotel? Check their shareholders you'll find big mac at the top, wonder why one hotel will prefer Coke instead of pepsi, check the same list.
In the past real government was always sensitive of monopolies for this reason but as a shareholder of a shareholder no one really gets to see who owns what in the large network of them all.
This is happening round the world with the same results, Gambia being one of the few to try and save their local industry from the sharks and banned AI but with the airlines in bed with the hotels they lasted just a year before they had to let them back in.
We see the direct effects of it here with the tourist industry but pick any field where there's money to be made and it's much the same with the same excuse, it's better for us. Yet our bills soar and the service drops.
This was written about decades ago but few believed it then and still ignore it despite now feeling it for real. You're correct in everything you say but they're smart people who know full well themselves, they simply don't care.
just like ireland & u.k. trying to claw every cent & penny they can (i call it cent & penny pinchin, euro-pound foolish) spain beng no different, you can see it in fuerte with the petty traffic depts. imposing fine's for the like's of the wearing of flip-flop's, 1 arm out the window whilst driving etc. one example of "penny pinching". abiding by these so called spanish "law's" is a joke, example here being, paying a fee to the notary when buying your property to investigate there's no debt on it, never done, so you tend to loose interest in whatever else the authorities come up with, so, can someone tell me what is this "wealth-tax" you're suppose to pay, and being told, "it's in case you rent out your property for profit", i've never heard of this renting licence, does'nt make a difference to me, as mine is rent free ! to family and close friend's that is, other than that i don't rent out.
You pay tax for the privilege of owning an apartment or holiday home if you do not rent it out. It is a sort of "non letting out" tax and it is based on the cadastral value of your property.http://spanishtaxforms.co.uk/page/1on0t/Spanish_property.html#question%206
It is different from wealth tax which has come back again but now only applies to those who are quite wealthy.
just quoting what i was told fifi, but apparently if you have residency you don't pay it, now, where do i go to get mine sorted ? resi that is.
The Police station in Rosario did mine Bluefox. I think you would need to declare yourself as a Spanish tax resident before any changes would be made. You become a tax resident if you spend 183 days a year in the Country. Look into it carefully if you are still living in both countries as it may effect some of your entitlements. The type of Residencia I have is the Certificado de registro de ciudano de la union, which does not effect your taxes in your home country.
As the quoted fines are basically for the documentation you need if you are a business ie hoja de reclamacion and noticia de hoja I wonder if they could get away with this if you are autonomo and hence have to carry those forms on your person (in my case I have to have them in my van though not sure where in the windscreen I would place the A4 sized noticia.
Perhaps you could be autonomo property agent or somesuch.....have I found a loophole????????????
You never know fourthwisemonkey.[:D]If you had 50% plus one of an old Tourist complex units on your books which had been passed by the Inspectors it might be possible. All bookings would have to be through you as the sole agent for the complex and the units would need to still have their Tourist status I think.
This really is an outrageous situation. Why put money into a property, which you then legally own, but then find that it has this restriction imposed on it? You are better off putting the money into a bank deposit account and just renting. It seem to me, that as soon as you own the property, you become a victim for taxation, because you cannot just 'up-sticks'.
This will completely kill off the tourist trade in the Canaries. The demand for hotel rooms will soar and hence the cost of those rooms will go up. But, overall numbers will fall, and the airlines will pull cheap flights.
And worse than this, owners will struggle to maintain their properties and complexes will go into decline. Those left holding property within the complexes, will face bigger and bigger financial demands for maintenance.
The Spanish need to sort this out double quick. They have a reputation of being short-sighted and corrupt, and this does nothing to address that view.
They must be prepared to start issuing permits. The problem, though, is so many properties have the word 'residential' attached to them. Getting 51% of complex owners to agree to accept lettings might prove difficult.
Just an after thought.....Will they be placing fines on individuals on residential complexes or will they impose the fines on the community?
quote:
Originally posted by SurfJames
Just an after thought.....Will they be placing fines on individuals on residential complexes or will they impose the fines on the community?
I dont know if the Communities are being fined too, maybe they are if they are operating illegally.
quote:
Originally posted by fuefairy
As long as you have adequate public sector liability insurance, pay your tax and are legal, I cant see why the government continue to interfere......
According to some articles I have read Public Liability insurance wont pay out if you let out illegally.
..........
I've been thinking........always a bad sign as my mum would say!
The Canarian Government clearly feel that they have a case to push this forward and impose fines on home owners without worrying too much about the potential impact on the economy. Why?
I reckon for the following reasons:
1. They feel stuck between a rock and a hard place and need to raise revenue asap to prevent a credit default...the result of which would cost the locals population heavily and the islands would have to start selling publically owned national assets, such as airports, hospitals etc
2. A credit crises would push up the cost of borrowing and the economy would slide into a depression
3. Property owners have been flouting the law and not declaring their income and tax
4. Imposing these fines will raise massive revenue, enabling the islands to re-invent themselves.
I reckon the Canaries see themselves as going 'up-market' and attracting a different sort of holiday maker in the future. They see little profit in mass-tourism and think the future lies in becoming 'elite', which might make sense, because they do have a unique and special environment, that you won't find anywhere else in the World.
That explains why they are only prepared to offer licenses to 5* hotels.
In other words, the Canaries could end up like Switzerland - a unique, special environment with reduced tourism and also a tax haven. They will also restrict property ownership and those that want to live there. If you already own, you may find yourselves very e=wealthy in 20 years tme!! [;)]
Just an idea, an I may be completely wrong, but there must be a reason behind this tax raising exercise. After all 7000 is just the start and this will raise E126 million alone....the total take could be in the billions. [:(!]
[:D][:D][:D][8D]
quote:
Originally posted by fifi
quote:
Originally posted by SurfJames
Just an after thought.....Will they be placing fines on individuals on residential complexes or will they impose the fines on the community?
I dont know if the Communities are being fined too, maybe they are if they are operating illegally.
It would seem unfair to punish the whole community, fifi, particulaly when owners who don't rent out, find those that do a pain in the bottom.
ps...sorry to hear about your hip. I've damaged a ligament in my knee and cannot run at the moment, which is most upsetting!! These things take so long to heal.
[:D][:D][8D]
What happens if you have rented a property for a holiday. Say one as advertised on reputable sites and have paid the rental and the property police come along and declare it "illegal" ??
quote:
Originally posted by falkirkdan
What happens if you have rented a property for a holiday. Say one as advertised on reputable sites and have paid the rental and the property police come along and declare it "illegal" ??
Hi Dan,
My understanding is that you won't be penalised as the renter. Also, you are able to rent out your property 'long term' but not for holidays.
I reckon you would need to avoid the main-stream sites such as owners direct. Advertise locally at home. Then ask for a voluntary contribution towards the running costs, which just happens to be the same amount as the rent you would have charged via owners direct. [:D]
You then need to inform the renters about the situation and ask them to give your name and address if they get a phone call...the inspectors are not actually knocking on doors....yet!
Infact, you could do the whole thing for cash...but I couldn't possibly suggest that this would be the way forward...[:D][:D][8D]
Thanks Surfjames, hope you get better soon and back to your running. I was having a look through the Boletins earlier (they show the fines which they have been unable to physically serve on people as far as I know) and the majority of people have been fined €18,000. The highest so far that I have seen was €24,000. From reading other Forums advertising on websites like Holiday Lettings and Owners Direct were one of the main ways that people were caught. I noticed a couple of months back that some of the Inspectors seem to be Czech or Polish (if you look at the names on some of the Denuncias). The Inspectors have visited one the Golf course areas in Caleta and collected names. It was published in their EGM.
quote:
Originally posted by falkirkdan
What happens if you have rented a property for a holiday. Say one as advertised on reputable sites and have paid the rental and the property police come along and declare it "illegal" ??
I suppose if someone was fined €18,000 they would not want to take the chance of being fined a second time. The first offence can be up to €30,000. The fines go up for a second offence. First offense is "Grave" and second is "Muy Grave" with fines to match the "crime"
So they are actually visiting places, Fifi, and not just making phone calls?
I'm surprised they are actually doing this in Fuerteventura, because there isn't enough hotels to fill the demand for holidays. Whereas, the other islands have huge hotel complexes.
7000 x 18,000 = E126,000,0000 !! Easy money.
I did a quick search on Owners Direct this afternoon, and there still seems to be loads of adverts, although some have definitely been removed.
Do you think this will have an impact on house prices? I'm still looking to buy in Corralejo and will have the funds early next year.
quote:
Originally posted by SurfJames
I'm still looking to buy in Corralejo and will have the funds early next year.
In my opinion we have two to three more years before property prices reach their floor here.
Yes its a handy way of making money allright. All of the Islands are effected by this letting law Surfjames.
This is worth reading if you are interested in the Property market. Wait a while because property prices are expected to drop another 7% by mid 2012 http://www.eurojuris.net/eng/publication-detail.asp?PublicationId=321
Thanks guys.
Always difficult to know when to buy in these uncertain times.
If the Euro crashes out,then Spain will have to devalue it's new curency. But, I reckon the Euro is here to stay.
Cash is king...as they say.
Fifi
Excellent research by you, as always
Well done
quote:
Originally posted by kevin2003
quote:
Originally posted by SurfJames
I'm still looking to buy in Corralejo and will have the funds early next year.
In my opinion we have two to three more years before property prices reach their floor here.
I think you're wrong there James. In feb this year that huge, 3 block hotel on the front at Caleta was largely unused. One block was totally empty, the middle one had only a few appts in use but the one nearest the pool and other facilities seemed to be in full swing.
In El Cotillo, the new hotel, which I think only opened 6 mths previously had been moth-balled for lack of interest.
When we tried to book a private appt in El Cotillo, as we usually do, everything was booked up months in advance and, for the second time running, we've had to take our 2nd or 3rd choice of appt types.
So I reckon the private appt trade is hurting the expansion of the hotel trade. I can just see the hotel lobbyers working overtime on the Govt depts responsible to take whatever action they can cook up to 'adjust' the situation and make some tax revenue at the same time.
Every tax avoider in Greece, Spain and now Italy is being stung at the moment nut, as has been observed here, it's a very short term/sighted, knee-jerk way of doing things.
Wait until dependant jobs start to disappear and services start to fold. It'll take years to put things right again. The local working popn will suffer.
I take the point about a different kind of tourism, but again, that will impact badly on the frequency , availability and cost of flights. Some carriers would just drop the place like a hot brick.
There doesn't seem to be any strategic joined-up thinking here.
quote:
Originally posted by SurfJames
So they are actually visiting places, Fifi, and not just making phone calls?
I'm surprised they are actually doing this in Fuerteventura, because there isn't enough hotels to fill the demand for holidays. Whereas, the other islands have huge hotel complexes.
7000 x 18,000 = E126,000,0000 !! Easy money.
I did a quick search on Owners Direct this afternoon, and there still seems to be loads of adverts, although some have definitely been removed.
Do you think this will have an impact on house prices? I'm still looking to buy in Corralejo and will have the funds early next year.
Sorry, James, that last post should have been referenced to this one of yours.
Has anyone either owners, media, local or national parties actually sat down with the Canarian gov and pointed out the possible end result of these fines and distruption to the economy
There is a Public meeting on 15th December Quarry and everyone affected by this is invited to attend. You can read about it here http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/illegal-holiday-let-inspections-and-fines-situation-continued.html
quote:
Originally posted by Canary dweller
Fifi
Excellent research by you, as always
Well done
Thanks CanaryDweller.[:)]
"There is a Public meeting on 15th December Quarry and everyone effected by this is invited to attend."
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
This meeting is on Tenerife.
Fly?
Sail?
Whatever way takes your fancy Waybo.[:)]
The first long and succinct post by "alanadale" pointing out what would happen to the local economy on all levels is brilliant. I think it should be read out at the meeting on behalf of all people affected by this rather stupid "rule". It seems to me that the government just have not thought this through.
The Islands tourism numbers increased because of the new flights which came on board. It remains to be seen if contracts will be signed again. Rumours are already around that Fuerteventura is not one of Ryanairs favourite routes and may be dropped (two sources so far,and a few of us Forumers are trying to follow up on this at the moment).
There are incentives being given to owners of Hotels and Apartment complexes to upgrade to a higher star rating in Fuerteventura. This is working and 20 million is being spent upgrading complexes in Corralejo as a result of it.
According to Agueda Montelongo the Department of Tourism want all Tourist accommodation to be regulated and listed on one website so that at any given time they will know exactly how many Tourist beds are available. The website has already been organised. I can understand that and it is fair enough.
As far as I can see they just want to put a stop to the private lettings alltogether and fill the existing Hotels and Apartment complexes which are easier to regulate. If they lose the flights their whole plan will fail. It is a case of too much too soon I think.
Fifi,s quote is on the money
The Islands tourism numbers increased because of the new flights which came on board. It remains to be seen if contracts will be signed again. Rumours are already around that Fuerteventura is not one of Ryanairs favourite routes and may be dropped (two sources so far,and a few of us Forumers are trying to follow up on this at the moment).
One of the incentives given to all of the airlines was based on increasing passenger numbers. The special incentives were the reason so many airlines all of a sudden took an interest in the Canary Islands.
Passenger numbers will fall without the DIY Tourists who book private accommodation which is much more affordable in many instances than Tourist accommodation and the incentives will not be awarded then to ANY of the airlines. Will they stay or will they go? Food for thought.
Does this 'ruling' apply to Mainland Spain as well, or are they just mugging the islands?
The law is different in mainland Spain Julian but in some parts they do want owners to have a license. It is similar I think in the Balearics but I dont know if there are huge fines like there are the Canaries.
...................
I contacted one of the leading insurers Intasure, to see whether their Public Liability cover would pay out if I were to let out my bungalow. They have 5 million Public Liability cover included in their policies.
This is their reply
Dear Fifi
In regards to your query regarding insuring a property in the Canary Islands.
Our underwriters have said 'Our policy would not pay any claims if the assured was taking part in an illegal activity'.
They also went on to say that they can't understand why this law would be brought in considering the country must receives such a large income from tourism.
Sorry we cannot be of help in this instance.
Kind regards,
Ronny Walker
www.intasure.com
quote:
Originally posted by fifi
The law is different in mainland Spain Julian but in some parts they do want owners to have a license. It is similar I think in the Balearics but I dont know if there are huge fines like there are the Canaries.
...................
I contacted one of the leading insurers Intasure, to see whether their Public Liability cover would pay out if I were to let out my bungalow. They have 5 million Public Liability cover included in their policies.
This is their reply
Dear Fifi
In regards to your query regarding insuring a property in the Canary Islands.
Our underwriters have said 'Our policy would not pay any claims if the assured was taking part in an illegal activity'.
They also went on to say that they can't understand why this law would be brought in considering the country must receives such a large income from tourism.
Sorry we cannot be of help in this instance.
Kind regards,
Ronny Walker
www.intasure.com
OMG Fifi ...
This means that anyone who lets out a property has, in effect, worthless insurance. If anything happens involving their property, the insurers will not pay out. And we all know just how cunning they are at wriggling out of claims.
There must be thousands of owners who have zero public liability, but who think they are covered. Imagine if a renter fell down the stairs and you were not insured...you could face an enormous bill, that could also threaten your assets in the UK.
This really is one enormous mess.[:(!]
Its like all policies, the small print is never highlighted until you try and claim Surfjames.
They do cover for earthquake damage but not Tsunamis though.[;)][:D][:D][:D]
Im just having a look through the Boletins.http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2011/244/015.html
Earlier on in this thread I mentioned that the fines are graded "Grave" (Serious) and "Muy Graves". (Very serious). First offences for illegal letting are considered "Grave". The majority of the fines are still the minimum amount of €18000, but one thing I never noticed before was that the "Muy Graves" (second offence) seems to have a fine of €150,000 or over, unless I am reading it wrong. Have a look and see if you think I am right. (Link above with this case translated by Google)
A snippet from one of the Boletins from 14th. I deleted the persons NIE number and name. This woman was fined €18000 for not having an inspection book and lacking complaint forms. These are the two offences that always show up in the Letting cases. She was caught in January but it is only appearing in the Boletin now because they were obviously unable to find her to serve papers on her.
First tourist exploitation .- No 331 apartment complex called El Marques Palace, lacking the inspection book.
Second tourist exploitation .- No 331 apartment complex called El Marques Palace, lacking the complaint forms.
The facts outlined above stem from advertising and related information contained in the website and the report issued by the Tourism Inspection Service dated January 31, 2011.
DATE OF VIOLATION:
Fact One: January 25, 2011.
Fact two: January 25, 2011.
SUBSTANTIVE RULES VIOLATED:
Done first: Article 84 of Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, Management of Tourism in the Canary Islands (BOC n º 48, April 19), in conjunction with Article 41 of Decree 190/1996, of August 1 , regulating the procedure for the exercise of sanctioning powers in tourism and tourism inspection (BOC n º 103 of August 21).
Fact two: Article 20.1 of Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, Management of Tourism in the Canary Islands (BOC n º 48, April 19) in conjunction with Article 8 of Decree 168/1996 of 4 July, which regulates the characteristics of the complaint forms and procedure for handling complaints (BOC n º 88, July 22).
CHARACTERIZATION OF VIOLATION:
Done first: Article 76.9 of Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, Management of Tourism in the Canary Islands (BOC n º 48, April 19).
Fact two: Article 76.4 of Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, Management of Tourism in the Canary Islands (BOC n º 48, April 19), amended by Law 14/2009, of December 30 (BOC n º 2 of 5.1.10).
LEGAL STATUS OF THE VIOLATIONS:
Done first: serious.
Fact two: severe.
PENALTIES THAT MAY APPLY:
Done first: 9000.00 euros.
Fact second: 9000.00 euros.
BODY
Spanish ...Para las infracciones calificadas como muy graves es competente para resolver el Gobierno de Canarias para las sanciones de multa superiores a 150.253,03 euros
For very serious offenses classified as muy graves to solve the Canary Islands Government sanctions over 150,253.03 euros fine and the Hon. Mr. President of the Canary Islands to the penalties of a fine up to that amount, according to the provisions of Article 80.1.a) and b) of Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, Management of Tourism in the Canary Islands (BOC No. 48, April 19) and Art degrees. 3.3.m) of Decree 240/2008 of 23 December, which approves the Organic Regulations of the Department of Tourism (BOC n º 3, 1/7/09), effective in accordance with the transitional provisions of the Decree 170/2011 of 12 July, which determines the structure and peripheral and central headquarters of the ministries of the Canary Islands (BOC n º 138 of July 14), classified as serious for the jurisdiction to the resolution, the Hon. Deputy Minister of Tourism, in accordance with Article 80.2 of Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, Management of Tourism in the Canary Islands (BOC n º 48, April 19) and Art degrees. 4.2.o) of Decree 240/2008 of 23 December, which approves the Organic Regulations of the Department of Tourism (BOC n º 3, 1/7/09), effective in accordance with the transitional provisions of the Decree 170/2011 of 12 July, which determines the central and peripheral structures, as well as the offices of the ministries of the Government of the Canary Islands (BOC n º 138 of July 14), and for minor is competent and qualified for solving the Ilma. Mrs. Director General for Planning and Tourism Promotion in accordance with Article 80.2 of Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, Management of Tourism in the Canary Islands (BOC n º 48, April 19) and Art degrees. 7.2.B). F) of Decree 240/2008 of 23 December, which approves the Organic Regulations of the Department of Tourism (BOC n º 3, 1/7/09), effective in accordance with the transitional provision Decree 170/2011 first, from July 12, which determines the central and peripheral structures, as well as the offices of the ministries of the Canary Islands (BOC n º 138 of July 14).
The meeting which was due to be held on 15th December was postponed. It seems like they backed down because of local lawyers trying to get them to change the law.
Update 15 December: There is a public meeting planned for the second half of January in the south of Tenerife. Attending will be the Government tourism department, the chief of the inspection team, and other senior officials of the department.
More information about that here http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/illegal-holiday-let-inspections-and-fines-situation-continued.html
If there is sufficient pressure to bear - this law will go. It is nonsense.
The fines are ridiculously high Florence. I wonder what the fines are like in the Balearics? I must try and find out.I bet they are nothing as high as the ones in the Canaries. Fair play to the people in Tenerife for trying to do something about it. I will keep an eye on it and see what happens.
More of the same concerns here - www.lanzaroteinformation.com/content/illegal-property-letting-canary-islands, however a little nugget for those who are having concerns right now:
"Any concerned property owners can search the BOC to see if they have been registered, go to the website www.gobcan.es/boc, click the Búsqueda avanzada (www.gobcan.es/boc/busqueda.html) option and enter your NIE number into the "buscar en texto" section and press "buscar" – hopefully a link to your name won't appear."
This may give someone a more peaceful Xmas.
Is there any chance of passing on these fines to the estate agent? If they advertise the properties demonstrating excellent rental potential etc, then surely they are involved in miss-selling.
Also, how many spanish get these fines? It would be interesting to see a break-down of nationality and fines being imposed.
james m8 where yer been, the estate agents have all long gone
In this case the fines are being leveled against the person and not the property. and there is an agreement with the inland revenue to persue the owners in the UK.
"Any concerned property owners can search the BOC to see if they have been registered, go to the website www.gobcan.es/boc, click the Búsqueda avanzada (www.gobcan.es/boc/busqueda.html) option and enter your NIE number into the "buscar en texto" section and press "buscar" – hopefully a link to your name won't appear."
Why would you enter your NIE number on a Government website which is actively looking for the villa owners concerned?
To find out if a boletin has been issued against you. if one has then you have 15 days from the date odf issue of the boletin to appeal
gusangus,
My point is that surely by entering your NIE number into this website, you are letting the gobierno know who you are and that you probably have an "illegal" holiday villa. Why else would you be on this webpage, looking at this topic, entering your NIE number to see if there is a fine livied against you? To my mind you may as well send them a picture of yourself, your address and your bank account number!
Why don´t you read the information given by Janet Anscombe it´s all there from the start up to the latest update.
Why donn't I read the information given by Janet Anscombe.....right!
Gee, silly old me. I hadn't thought of that......
Thanks for the advice gusangus. That's really, really helpful.
You could loose you right to appeal if they have issued a boletin against you and you don´t find out. the ball is in your court after they issue it.
Has anyone in Fuerteventura actually been fined as yet?
alanadale, the reason, as gusangus says "To find out if a boletin has been issued against you" is correct.
The search you would be doing will not relate to any particular subject or issue, merely to find the matching text in any document on their site, much the ssame as searching for a word in a PDF document.
Any goverment official, if they were to have your NIE as a saved search, which I doubt, would have as much chance of thinking you may be applying for a licence for commercial fishing, bar, massage parlour or taxi.
quote:
Originally posted by wesmin
Has anyone in Fuerteventura actually been fined as yet?
According to the article 7000 people are in the process of being fined and this includes people from all of the Islands Wes. I think anyone who has advertised on a holiday letting website can take it for granted that they will be fined because that is one of the ways that they caught so many people, but it may take a year or so before they are all processed. Owners Direct and some other companies were mentioned on the Tenerife forum. The only names that appear on the BOC are the names of people who they have been unable to physically serve with a fine or whos papers have been returned. I understand what Alan is saying about it being risky putting your NIE number into the website. Its not necessary to do that though because you can check the Boletin every day. The fines are always in the same section and there are only five or six every day and you get used to the look of them and can see the persons name clearly and so dont need to even translate them.
It is worth keeping an eye on. If for example an owner did not receive a fine in person and did not bother checking the Boletins they would not know anything about it and could end up being fined €150,000 for a second offence. If the fines are not paid they are attatched to the property. Without knowing it you could end up with no equity at all in your property. Scary stuff.
taken from Janet Anscombes site http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/illegal-holiday-let-inspections-and-fines-situation-continued.html
In terms of practicalities, the fines are levied on the owner, not the property. If the fine is unpaid, it will be registered against the property. If the property has changed hands, then the fine will remain as levied against the person, and cannot be registered against the property. The Government intends to use an existing mechanism which utilises the reciprocal arrangements between the Hacienda and the Inland Revenue to pursue the case against the individual should it become impossible to register an unpaid fine against the property. This means, in short, that they are going to go after owners in the UK if they have sold up here before the fine was registered against their property. If multiple fines are imposed to the point where the total amount fined exceeds the value of the property (value as determined by the tax authorities), then the Government will undertake repossession measures
Its nothing more than corperate theft. Theres no country in the world that undereacts or overeacts like the Spanish authorities. With fines like that they are basically saying if you have the temerity to rent out your OWN property we will ruin you financially.Its a bullying attitude and is victimising owners and criminalising them for nothing other than looking after the concerns of the big hotelliers. Theres nowhere in the world that treats their homeowners in that fashion, and i can't think fines like that could stand up in a court of law. Before paying any rediculous fines a trip to a solicitor would seem advisable and preferably one who specialises in European law, also find out how previous cases have panned out.Once you've paid it you'll never get it back.
It's a very uneasy situation for all those concerned.
Reminds me of all the trouble some expats with land holdings and large gardens had in Valencia district not too long ago when developers exercised the right to take any land they deemed fit , providing the development was for affordable housing for young indigenes.
The land in question was not seized just for the property plots themselves but for access roads and new communal areas too.
What will they do when the considerable spending power of the expats has gone, presuming they push this latest move to the point of idiocy. Talk about cutting your nose off, etc.
Banks are going to get lots of keys in the post !!!
People will turn heads and walk away from the Island.
People would be happy to have a letting license if they could sort one.
What's the siuation with the tax people have paid to the tax office for letting are we going to get a refund now ?? or told to go away!!
If it an illegal transaction is it illegal to take the tax then for this letting.?
As fifi suggested, renting is the way forward.
Owning means you cannot walk away - you become a victim for taxation. If you try to cover some of the taxes by renting out, you get a massive fine (which ends up in the govt. bank account).
Complexes will become shabby as owners walk away. At worse the complex collapses. Then it is sold to a new developer who does it up and sells as residential units. And the whole cycle starts again.
These guys are nothing short of acting like the mafia.
The "Illegal lettings thread" on the Tenerife Forum is worth following. Some owners on a complex which was previously classed as Touristic are looking into how much it would cost to try and regain their status and set up a sole agent to manage bookings etc.
The main problem seems to be cost of it all ,and whether 50% plus one would agree to pay for a daily maid service,life guard (30k for the lifeguard alone) running a Reception area and Management fees.What they seem to be finding is that they would not be cost competitive with the existing Tourist complexes so that is a problem.
A lot of the older Tourist complexes which were privatised would not have a lot of money in their Community contingency fund (if they even have one) for upgrading to the required standards. As far as I can remember without reading the thread again the cost of financing the change for an average sized complex would be 100K per annum and if you only managed to get the minimum amount of people willing to change to a sole agent it would work out very expensive per owner.
I cant see it working to be honest but it is interesting reading.
QuoteOriginally posted by Cameron
Before paying any rediculous fines a trip to a solicitor would seem advisable and preferably one who specialises in European law, also find out how previous cases have panned out.Once you've paid it you'll never get it back.
......................
There is only 15 days for an appeal to be lodged (and you may not even be aware that you have been fined if you do not read the Boletins), and also the expense of Legal action could amount to more than the cost of the fine so that would be a problem Cameron. If a large group of people were to try and change or try and work within the law (as in the case of Touristic complexes) it would be easier. It will be interesting to see how the Tenerife Lawyers get on when they meet the Minister for Tourism.
In that case fifi a trip to the solicitors before a fine arrives could be a good bet for those who think they are a high risk of being targeted. My take on this is that ANY homeowners not just those renting should be praying that we do not exit the euro and are left without the protection of the Euro courts. With no restrictions holding them back the Spanish will just make rules to suit themselves and ride roughshod over foriegn homeowners taking what they want when they want. I'd be a little concerned if i was a retiree, expat or just a home owning renter. Sounds a bit doomy but i can see comeing and its a scarey scenario all round..
Driving home from work tonight, I was thinking about this thread, and the unfair stress that the authorities are putting on people. I have been saving hard and have the funds, ready to buy in the new year - a villa in Corri. I was looking at properties around 300K and was hoping to buy within walking distance of town; if possible Avenida Grandes Playas. But I thought - what the blazes ! If they are going to treat investors in their country so badly, why take the risk? Why spend my hard earned cash on an asset that cannot generate income if my own situation takes a turn for the worse? If you own something, you should be free to use it to your own advantage.
So they can go to hell.[:(!]
I'm not spending in the Canaries, but looking at other countries instead. Somewhere that welcomes investors with open arms; somewhere where you are free from petty regulations
So, sorry Estate Agents, furniture stores, taxi drivers, supermarkets, cleaners and key holders, tourist attractions etc etc etc etc, but you ain't gonna get any of my money because your greedy mafiosa authorities are taking too much of my wealth without offering anything in return.
And you won't be getting any of the money from other holiday makers who would have loved to rent my up-market villa
And this will happen again and again and again from buyers until the penny drops!!!
This has to be the most short sighted mean spirited law ever imposed by corrupt mafiosa authorities. [:D][:D][8D]
I would be glad to see the end of the unregulated private rental market. I own a modest house on a small complex which I bought many years ago at a price less even than today's prices, so I have very little capital exposure and no mortgage. We visit 5 or 6 times a year and our family also. I have never rented the house out nor will I ever do so.
On our complex the typical renters are northern pikeys or southern chavs - boozy, noisy and uncultured. The fewer the better and preferably none at all. Let them stay away or go AI, it keeps them out of my way. It's a shame if the local economy suffers, but we come for the scenery, not the bars and restaurants. The view driving west across the mountains via Cardon and north along the west coast to Pajara and Betancuria (my favourite drive) is the same whether there are one or a hundred bars in Corralejo.
The price of houses will collapse, maybe, but then new buyers will come in at the cheap prices and eventually a new equilibrium will be reached. People will get hurt. What do you expect? The world is in the middle of a major depression - why should home owners on Fuerteventura be immune?
On your complex the typical renters are northern pikeys or southern chavs... wow sweeping generalisation!
I would have thought that if you wanted to stay away from the 'Great Uncultured and Unwashed', buying a property on a complex was a rather naiive move.
IMO the 'chavs' usually buy a package, the independent traveller usually takes more care in researching the destination and decides on a private rental to get away from the Brits Abroad scene...another generalisation but there ya go.
The ridiculous restrictions on private rentals will just deprive the Canaries from independent travellers who use local businesses and services. If the powers that be want to have 5 star establishments to the fore, the locale conomy will suffer....people having money should not be equated with them having 'culture'.
Way, way back in the evolution of Fuerteventura becoming a tourist destination, things were different. It was largely the surfing community that discovered Fuerte' and they had no need for tacky Brit Bars or AI hotels. They appreciated and loved the island for what it had to offer naturally. As with the vast majority of 'resorts' the major places on the islands have been spoilt...not by private renters, but by mass market tourism accommodation. IMO Ryanair will pull if this silly law is not repealed....which will affect most property owners who live abroad.
Blimey old_stumpy.
That was the most selfish, ill-informed and utterly self-serving post I've ever seen on this forum. And that is against some stiff competition.
Yes, I know it's an open forum where you have a right to say what you think. It is also my right to be utterly repulsed by your crass insensitivity and borderline racism.
Idiot.
Its nothing to do with racism. He like a lot of other retirees think that the whole island should be one massive old folks home for them to dither about in. Buy on a complex in a holiday resort and wonder why you are surrounded by tourists. Pricelss. If you want residential maybe Puerto is the place to be.
"it's a shame if the local economy suffers, but we come for the scenery, not the bars and restaurants. The view driving west across the mountains via Cardon and north along the west coast to Pajara and Betancuria (my favourite drive) is the same whether there are one or a hundred bars in Corralejo.
The price of houses will collapse, maybe, but then new buyers will come in at the cheap prices and eventually a new equilibrium will be reached."
This is just the sort of attitude we need. I am okay, my house is still in equity and so sod you all. I can just visit when I want and do what I want.........HOWEVER how will you get here when the only flights available will be carrying AI tourists (guess you would not want to share a plane with those chavs and pikeys). Also be nice and easy shopping for food as I am sure all the big stores will retain a presence just for you. Hope you know all about plumbing ,electrics,building etc so you can do all your own repairs as all the workmen will have left (unless employed at AI hotel.) That is assuming you will be able to buy the materials locally . Enjoy your little drive around as it will become even better when there are only a few goat-herders on the road to impede your journey (assuming there are any cars to hire). And heaven forbid you should need hospital treatment as without local tax payers to pay for the hospital etc then you may face a trip on a rowing boat over to Gran Canaria to see the doctor.
Whilst we have people with your narrow minded, I am all right Jack attitude we will never get anywhere on this island. no wonder the authorities feel it is so easy to do what they want!
Rant over
I had a quick look on the internet to see what is happening in other countries. In Portugal there are fines of up to €25,000 for not having a license and it seems that licenses are not easily come by either. http://dj-law.com/14.html
In Italy licenses are also required.
I believe that in time licenses will be offered to villa owners because there is a growing demand for that kind of accommodation and it is one which can not be met without private owners.
In April a letting agent who was fined looked into the possibility of getting licenses for villas in the future and was given this advice by the Department of Tourism. This is worth noting.
"The pointers being to try to get the villas with a many safety measures in place for the time when they would be allowed a tourist licence i.e
fire extinguishers,fire alarms,recorded pool check,proper fire retardent fabrics,pest control certificates and as many safety precautions you can supply,some of our villas have now put in safety fences around pools,which in my opinion is a good safety measure........we are not giving our clients a touristic service because we dont offer them meals or a maid service, i know most apartments dont either but the apartments are either on residential or touristic blocks, not private land like the villas "
Where were the touristic department 7 or 8 years ago when the economy was booming. Complexes and apartments were being built all over the place, with estate agents yelling from the rooftops how much rental income you could grab from them. I don't remember them disciplining any estate agents about advertising rental potential and not informing investers a liscence was required by law.They were conspicuous by their absence.Now most of those Estate agents are long gone with their ill gotten gains out they come demanding non existent legal papers and dishing out extortionate fines.It matters not a jot if it is the same in other Euro countries it stinks and its always the little guy's bank account gets a caning.
So Portugal and Italy also dish out fines. Honestly, sometimes its quite easy to see why there are some countries in the eurozone doing so badly. Stifling business and missing out on tax collection...
The Public meeting due on 15th December which was cancelled and then was planned for the latter half of January, has in fact, gone ahead today.
I don't yet have all the details yet but my source tells me that legal challenges were made by the "owners" lawyers against the government for the way in which evidence was gathered in order to fine the individual.
They have basically suggested that even though someone advertises a property on the internet with intent to let it, that in itself is not sufficient to state that they actually have let it.
More to follow no doubt.
Thanks for that Sharky. There is more information about the meeting here and also a reduction in fines after appeal. http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/illegal-holiday-let-inspections-and-fines-situation-continued.html
The Public meeting is due to be held still in January and it is expected that Restaurateurs, Taxi men and Business owners will attend to show their support.
"To end, the lawyers had clear advice for owners who feel they have no choice but to continue to advertise while this lobbying is going on. That advice is firstly to remove any suggestion from adverts of a touristic offer: not just "holidays", but "touristic services", including cleaning, safe storage boxes, airport transfers etc. Secondly, for those with clearly touristic adverts, to write to the administrators of any websites hosting their adverts and say that you do not agree with what is reproduced in your name and that all your letting conforms to the Urban Letting Law – i.e. that you are only offering residential lets. It will be essential to keep a copy, and to send the original by registered mail for proof of delivery: here, there is also the facility of Burofaxes which prove what was actually in the letter sent."
Fifi thank you for that link but I don't understand this paragraph, maybe its the translation. Anyone know what this means
Yes I do understand it Waybo. It is the same advice which was given to Deso (from the Forum) which he posted on here a while ago after his complex consulted a Lawyer about their situation. Basically they are advising people (who really have to take the risk) to advertise their properties in exactly the way that they have suggested and not as Tourist lets. Avoid mentioning holidays, airport transfers, safes, cleaning and all of the usual wording that is in a Holiday letting advert. I would imagine that you shouldnt put a calendar on the site either. They suggest that you have recorded proof also that you have advised the Website owners that you are advertising a residential let (and not offering a Touristic service)
If your advert looks like it could be for a long term let on a Residential complex it would be safer. I think thats the idea behind it anyway.[:)]
Im thinking about it here and I had a quick look at the Urban lawhttp://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Privado/l29-1994.html and it doesnt cover holiday letting but was changed a number of years ago to allow the owner more say in the duration of the let.
Janet mentioned in her article above that when Tourismo offered website information as some of their proof of illegal Tourist letting the accuseds Lawyers defence was that the Holiday Lettings companies state that they are not responsible for checking information contained in their websites (in other words what they are advertising is not proof of a Touristic let?) and it was inadmissable as evidence because Tourismo said that they wont accept what the website says as fact, so if you have proof that you have sent a letter to them stating that you are not offering a Touristic service it may help. What does everyone else think? [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by old_stumpy
I would be glad to see the end of the unregulated private rental market. I own a modest house on a small complex which I bought many years ago at a price less even than today's prices, so I have very little capital exposure and no mortgage. We visit 5 or 6 times a year and our family also. I have never rented the house out nor will I ever do so.
On our complex the typical renters are northern pikeys or southern chavs - boozy, noisy and uncultured. The fewer the better and preferably none at all. Let them stay away or go AI, it keeps them out of my way. It's a shame if the local economy suffers, but we come for the scenery, not the bars and restaurants. The view driving west across the mountains via Cardon and north along the west coast to Pajara and Betancuria (my favourite drive) is the same whether there are one or a hundred bars in Corralejo.
The price of houses will collapse, maybe, but then new buyers will come in at the cheap prices and eventually a new equilibrium will be reached. People will get hurt. What do you expect? The world is in the middle of a major depression - why should home owners on Fuerteventura be immune?
Dear Old stumpy
If there are no private rentals there will be no independent cheap flights either. So you won't be able to visit your idyllic holiday home when you feel like it, nor will your family be able to take advantage of your generosity.
quote:
Originally posted by Florence
So Portugal and Italy also dish out fines. Honestly, sometimes its quite easy to see why there are some countries in the eurozone doing so badly. Stifling business and missing out on tax collection...
I rather think it's the other way about, Florence. Perhaps they're doing so badly because people have been dodging their taxes and the revenue authorities have not been enthusiastic enough. Looks like they've had a good kick up arris and are now making up for lost opportunities.
Theres no tax to be gained from preventing private rental. Plenty to be gained from multiple lets though. Plus the added bonus of an annual licence fee renewal. Tax avoidance and prevention of homeowners from gaining an income through rental to pacify large holiday companies are two completely different things.
quote:
Originally posted by fifi
Im thinking about it here and I had a quick look at the Urban lawhttp://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Privado/l29-1994.html and it doesnt cover holiday letting but was changed a number of years ago to allow the owner more say in the duration of the let.
Fifi, I've looked at this legislation http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Privado/l29-1994.html, and cannot immediately find a minimum term for "non-holiday" lets, any ideas?
I had heard, some time ago, that a non-holiday let was considered to be nothing less than 45 days but I don't know if that still stands with all the ammendments that lot do.
Hi Sharky, I havent studied it in any great detail. I was looking to see if maybe there was an obvious loophole in the law by claiming that you are letting out under the Urban law act but like you say it does not seem to apply to short term lets. I think that is the reason why the advice given was to avoid any reference to the letting being short or of a Tourist nature in the adverts. It would be then up to the Inspectors to try and prove that you were not letting out for a shorter period than is covered under this Law. I will try and study it a bit more when I have a chance and have a look for any ammendments which may have been made and if I spot anything interesting will post it here.[:)]
Looking through the boletins they are not going for Residential or Turistic etc they ae fining people for not having an inspection book and a complaints book which will not be issued unless you have a licence
this is taken fron a boletin
FACTS:
First: exploiting tourist apartment 232
the so-called complex "El Marques Palace" lacking
the book of inspection of tourism.
Second: exploiting tourist apartment
232 of the complex known as "El Marques Palace"
lack of leaves of claims.
The facts above described arise
advertising and information contained in the
corresponding web and issued report page
by the inspection date 31 tourist service
January 2011.
DATE OF BREACH:
Done first: January 25, 2011.
Second fact: January 25, 2011.
INFRINGIDAS SUBSTANTIVE RULES:
Done first: article 84 of the Act 7/1995, of
April 6, Canary Islands tourism management
(BOC No. 48, April 19). Article 41 of the Decree
190/1996 of 1 August, controller of the procedure
for the exercise of sanctioning powers
in the tourist area and tourism (BOC) inspection
(No. 103, August 21).
Second fact: article 20.1 of the Act 7/1995,
6 April, Canary Islands tourism management
(BOC No. 48, April 19). Article 8 of the Decree
168/1996 of 4 July, which regulates
the characteristics of the leaves of claims and the
claims procedure
(BOC No 88, July 22).
CHARACTERIZATION OF THE OFFENCE:
Done first: 76.9 article of Act 7/1995, of
April 6, Canary Islands tourism management
(BOC No. 48, 19 April), amended by the Act
14/2009 of 30 December (BOC No. 2 of 5.1.10).
Second fact: article 76.4 of Act 7/1995,
6 April, Canary Islands tourism management
(BOC No. 48, 19 April), amended by the
Law 14/2009 of 30 December (BOC No.2, of)
5.1.10)
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron
Theres no tax to be gained from preventing private rental. Plenty to be gained from multiple lets though. Plus the added bonus of an annual licence fee renewal. Tax avoidance and prevention of homeowners from gaining an income through rental to pacify large holiday companies are two completely different things.
I entirely agree, Cameron. But I was talking about what has happened, not as we would want it.
http://www.myadvocatespain.com/buying-property-in-spain/landlord-tenant-spain
Any use? Ref. first para on 'minimum duration of leases' of lease.
QuoteOriginally posted by gusangus
Looking through the boletins they are not going for Residential or Turistic etc they ae fining people for not having an inspection book and a complaints book which will not be issued unless you have a licence
this is taken fron a boletin
Yes that is the way most of the fines are worded Gus.There is another fine that I have seen too for lying to the Inspectors which I think was around €1500 and some cases are worded slightly differently.
Two of the fines are for Commercial admin failures which cover both Tourist and Residential lets although according to Janets blog the wording was unimportant because the fines are still for letting in an illegal manner.
I am just trying to figure out why the advice was given to advertise as if you are covered under the Urban Law because I dont think that there is any protection offered by doing so other than perhaps throwing Inspectors off the scent for a while.
quote:
Originally posted by waggy
http://www.myadvocatespain.com/buying-property-in-spain/landlord-tenant-spain
Any use? Ref. first para on 'minimum duration of leases' of lease.
Hi Waggy, thanks for that.[:)] I have a feeling that there is a minimum time though even though the Landlords were allowed extra freedom when this law was ammended years ago. I have a feeling that Sharky might be right when he mentioned 45 days but im not positive.
Some people have taken their address off the ads but left their name on it which is easily traced through the Land Registry data base and will give all relevant details. I think it would be safer to get off the internet ads and start an email campaign based on your own customer data base and friends that way you can "legally" say you are letting family and friends use the property as there will not be any proof to the contary
You are not allowed accept any money from Family or Friends either Gus so no money to be made there.[;)][:)] I agree with you though that advertising does seem to be risky.
I found a copy of the Urban Law in English (I havent read it all yet)http://www.eui.eu/Documents/DepartmentsCentres/Law/ResearchTeaching/ResearchThemes/EuropeanPrivateLaw/TenancyLawProject/TenancyLawSpain.pdf
Just trying to see if there is any minimum mentioned.
three months plus let is classed as a residential let and it should be remembered that a contract should be drawn up, To cover yourselves against rent arrears etc use a format as reccomended here http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/rules-evicting-tenants.aspx
its always made me smile when people have advertised their propertys on here and say it in a manner they are doing it to cover the mortgage as though its the norm. It may well be the norm but dont advertise it, i'm sure some think its a tax deductable transaction or more than likely they dont even realise the tax implications.
That sun does weird things to peoples reasoning;)
I skimmed through the English version of the law and cant see anything that states 3 months Gus but I may have missed it. It does say this though.
Regarding the residential tenancy,
article 2 LAU states that occupied buildings must be essentially assigned to satisfy a
permanent housing necessity. It should be noted that this article uses the word
"essentially"232 (primordialmente) which means that the apartment must be used
mainly with residential purposes and not the contrary.
The things that people have said to me when I have tried to warn them of what is happening "my accountant in the uk deals with that"
"Its against my human rights " ."it won´t happen here" "they can´t do that we let in the uk and it´s no problem" the corresponding crackdown on the black economy also raises the question of if you are paying someone to clean and maintain your property and they are not "autonomo" or have a sl company. then any payment to them is illegal and can bring grief, and so it goes on
Thats the figure we were given when we bought our place, we were asked if we were going to let. as our complex is residential we were advised that the shortest let was three months. as we were not letting it did not matter. how accurate that is is a another thing
There's a Spanish implosion looming....!
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2011/12/spanish-implosion-deficit-up-receipts.html
The article says that Spain needs to cut 40 Billion from a budget of 90 Billion. That's a massive cut.
To put it bluntly, the authorities are gonna clamp down hard on illegal lettings. This is gonna be a cash cow for them. Just look at these figures:
7000 prosecutions = 126 Million Euros
20000 presecutions = 360 Million Euros
50000 prosecutions = 900 Million Euros
100000 prosecutions = 1.8 Billon Euros
This will balance the books, and the way they have structured the fines, you have to pay up quick otherwise the amount increases considerably. Ignore it and the debt will be placed onto the property and the asset, in effect, passes to the authorities.
I'm not so sure there is a so called "Spanish implosion" looming for some very simple economic reasons. Yes, Spain are in the huge financial potty poo poo. If the Spanish authorities clamp down to this proposed level nationwide seriously, can you seriously imagine the shockwave that will permeate their flat-lining property market? A well documented problem like this which became well known outside of Spain would damage the housing market even more.
Probably Spain's biggest problem is unemployment which is at about 22% and a huge proportion of this is in the construction business. Add in to this the unsold housing stocks which they are desperate to sell which aI've read is anywhere from 1.2 to 2.5 million houses. If Spain were to seriously "clamp down" on illegal lettings, which oversea investor would buy a house which they couldn't generate an income from? Or which property developer will buy up developments to sell on to an foreign end-user when there market will be hugely restricted.
The first thing to put into context at this point is this "illegal fine" business. The most pertinent points for me is : How much money will they actually get from these fines, because for 100000 properties it ain't going to get anywhere near 1.8 Billion Euros after any legal process.
Secondly, how are they going to get the money? Everybody says the same thing : The property has to be sold, but there is also another point to consider from the very end of Surfjames post, which is that the "the property and the asset, in effect, passes to the authorities."
Does anyone honestly think in their right mind that the Spanish Government wants anything to do with tens, if not hundreds of thousands of properties that are heading their way through tens, if not hundreds of thousands of individual judicial processes and appeals, over months, if not years which they need to sell at a fraction of their market value to get any money? Why do you think that the advice given to people is to "sell it".
To who? For what price?
This is about scaring people into paying up quickly.
This is still a relatively local or regional story which is still relatively contained, but could have cataclysmic consequences for their property market.
Someone posted further up about Spain possibly leaving the EU. Nah, isn't going to happen. If Spain leave the EU on a Monday, they will be bankrupt by the Tuesday. Back in the day when Spain was building houses for fun, there were very specific economic conditions that were fuelling their housing boom. They had to meet specific economic criteria to enter the Euro back in 1992, one of which was % of debt against GDP. Now we all know that this has gone completely Pete Tong all over Europe in the last few years, but Spain are by no means the worst. Spains biggest advantage 20 odd years ago to fund their housing boom was a 45% devaluation in the Peseta. This exchange rate valuation was the biggest single factor in this housing boom, probably the biggest driver behind it all.
As we all fondly remember, this meant cheap beer, cheap hols and cheap houses. Now they are in the Euro THEY ABSOLUTELY CANNOT DEVALUE LIKE THIS AGAIN.
So why stay in the Euro? i'll tell you why : Cheap Money.
Spain absolutely must stay in the Euro to benefit from cheap bond issues to fund their debt. Anything else would be probably mean instant collapse and no politician wants this on their watch. Countries are borrowing on the open market through bond auctions. If a country has to offer over a certain level for the market to buy their bonds, then the market seems to look very unfavourably on this, and start asking for a much higher rate, and 7% seems to be the tipping point. A couple of months ago Spain was at 6.6%, France is currently at 3.3%, the UK is 2%. Greece is 30 odd% the last time I heard. Since the change of government last month Spains last bond auction has came down to 5.09%, so the markets are looking more favourably on this new government and what they are saying they are going to do. With the housing market being so utterly fragile, they want to stimulate it, not kill it off.
They need to sort out the countries finances, which the new PM says he will do. Whether that happens or not, I'm not holding my breath.
However, in relation to bonds, the fund set up by the ECB to buy up sovereign debt offers repayment of 1%, making debt payments far more achievable.
This is why they wont leave the EU, because they absolutely can't afford to.
Does anyone think that the new PM, Mr Rajoy, knows about this problem? Maybe someone should get his e-mail address, post it on the internet so anyone who thinks this is a problem can contact him or his office directly telling how much millions and billions of Euros he would raise if it was licenced and taxed? Or if facebook and twitter can be used to topple middle east governments, maybe it could be used to let the new government know about this problem?
Just a thought.
Excellent post Gordond.
I reckon eventually they will have to 'cave-in' and start issuing licenses to property owners again.
Issuing licences won´t be an option, owners will have to purchase a licence after the property has been inspected and the required inspection books issued, I think then that the fine for illegal letting without a licence etc will probably increase dramaticaly
The one option if you have a big mortgage on a property and they wont let you let is hand the keys back to the bank and add it to the stock pile they already have around there necks.
property sales are on the increase maybe people are using this opportunity to get a holiday home for personal use cheaply
http://www.tumbit.com/news/articles/4486-sales-of-spanish-property-to-foreigners-experiences-growth.html
Oh goody. Lots more proerties lying empty for 48 weeks a year then.
I'm going to apologise in advance for the length of this post, but I've been reading over Christmas. Beforehand I had no idea what a "sub-prime" mortgage was. I didn't know what a "Credit Crunch" was or why it happened or why it happened to particular banks first or why it affected the worldwide economy. These first 2 paragraphs are directly from one book.
"The housing market in the US was in desperate straits. Millions of Americans on low incomes – and in some cases no income – had been persuaded to buy houses on the back of historically low interest rates. Many had been sold mortgages that had incredibly low interest rates of interest with low repayments for the first few years and then reverted to a much higher rate afterwards. All this was predicated on house prices continuing to rise, so that the value of the home would quickly outstrip the value of the loans made against them. Then when house prices began to plateau and to fall; and on top of that, when interest rates went up, millions of people found they could not meet the repayments of their loans. "
Now, read that again and substitute the following :
"US" or "American" for Canary Islands.
"and in some cases no income" – Holiday villa owner who can't rent it out due to fear or fine.
I also read this in the next paragraph.
"All of this had two effects that proved disastrous for the US. First, defaulting loans turned into securities and held by American banks changed from assets to massive liabilities. Sceondly, in the US, unlike the UK, a property owner can simply hand back the keys to their house and walk away. That meant that the US housing market crashed, leaving empty and half completed homes dotted across the country, and now the whole country would have to pay for it."
Northern Rock, Bradford and Bingley and Alliance & Leicester were the first to fail. These were lenders whose whole businesses were about lending to home buyers. They got the money to do this by borrowing from other banks, which is entirely normal. What happened during this period was no-one would lend to each other because no bank was sure whether they would get their money back. A"credit crunch." Banks who were hugely exposed to the housing market and the decreasing value of their mortgage book was affected first. The equivalent here are probably the so called "Caja's".
If a house is repossessed by a bank, it changes from being an "asset" to a "liability". It moves from one side of their balance sheet to the other and banks who are heavily exposed to the housing market have a spate of repossessions, they are seen by other banks as a financial bad risk, who then wont lend them money, and then the bank collapses (See Northern Rock, RBS, Bradford & Bingley etc). Add into that falling house prices where a banks mortgage "book" was 10 billions last year, 8 billion this year, and because of falling house prices, say 6 billion next year, then which bank is going to lend to another when the price of the asset/house is constantly falling?
This is why the banks don't want to repossess. The more they repossess, or have keys handed back, the bigger risk they appear to other banks. The more they repossess, the lower house prices become because the banks want to get rid of them, sell them at a knockdown price, and everyone else has to lower their prices to compete. And remember here that anyone buying one of these knockdown price bargains then cannot legally rent their property out for holiday lets to raise the money to pay the mortgage!
As we all know, the difference for thousands of property owners in the Canary Islands is that holiday rentals is how they pay their mortgages. As we all know the difference in Spain and the Canary Islands is that people are now being prosecuted for renting their villa out. They are legally preventing a home owner from raising the funds to pay their mortgage. Rightly or wrongly it has always gone on and a lot of the time it is through ignorance. In thousands of cases someone has been looking for a way to boost the value of the hard-earned savings they have accumulated for years, they pass an estate agent where they see "Fabulous rental potential", they put some money down to start the process off. It isn't until much further down the line after they are legally committed and can't back out that they find out, sometimes not until after they have received the keys for their property that they can't rent it out for holidays legally. This scenario as we know is very, very common.
I personally believe that the threat of a huge fine will be the tipping point for tens of thousands of owners who can't pay, and therefore wont pay. Keys are going to be handed back at an alarming rate. The liquidity in the property that will be lost will mean less to some people than a six figure fine and a criminal record. Yes, they say they will pursue people for the fines, but do you honestly think the Spanish government have the will, means, or money to go after the hundreds of thousands of people, many overseas, who will be prosecuted?
And remember that the more keys handed back, it will be far worse for the bank, possibly fatal.
I think every President of every bank should be invited to the public meeting in Tenerife on the 15th of January and given a front row seat. They should get this invite in the knowledge that the clampdown currently being enforced will lead to less mortgage payments for them, then repossessions, with the real possibility that their bank will not be able to survive, throwing them out of their very well paid jobs and putting all of their bank staff and colleagues on the dole queue next to the builders, plumbers and shop workers who are currently there.
As we all know we are in the middle of a recession. If the Spanish Government are not very careful here, they have legislated themselves into another, much worse one. They need to start issuing licences now.
Hi Gordond,
You've hit the nail on the head mate. Most people I talk to have no idea what the credit crunch is about. The banksters have shafted everyone - good and proper this time.
And just to finish off your excellent post.......just consider the Bond Market that's going on, because this is gonna be the next bubble to burst. Govts are selling thier debt as Bonds to the Chinese etc, at low interest rates. The money raised keeps us afloat, as it is used for public expenditure. But, when these bond sales fail, interest rates will have to shoot up.
My advice to everyone, is to prepare for the worst and get in place a strategy for coping with higher rates. And DON'T borrow at the moment. These barstwewards wil take your house off you.
And, just another thing, under EU law, you cannot just hand back the keys. You will be persued for the outstanding debt against your assets in the UK.
The banksters are to blame for this, and they've got off free of the crime. Property prices will be falling for a while yet.
i think we should ave both sides of the story,are there any "big bankers" on here;)?
Excellent posts by Gordond and SurfJames. This is the kind of information which needs to be drilled into the brains of the Spanish Authorities regarding this issue. They just don't seem to be able to learn from the mistakes of other nations.
Now, how can you get this info to the meeting taking place soon?
I'll be surprised if they back down on this one. The old Latins don't like to lose face and might be prepared to soldier on regardless of the consequencies. I feel the bigger problem will emerge with the breakdown of the euro and our subsequent exit. Then they'll be out to get us all, renters or no renters. Remember you read it here.
Could it be those that took a delight in seeing renters get their cum-uppance will also find themselves on the receiving end of new draconian laws especially set up for the benefit of the expat and retired gringos ?. I'd say its more than a possibility.
we;re not in the euro cameron
We're not in the eurozone currency wise but we're bound by the rules of the european parliament which at the moment should protect each country involved . Hope that explains what i was trying to say.
quote:
Originally posted by emmi
Excellent posts by Gordond and SurfJames. This is the kind of information which needs to be drilled into the brains of the Spanish Authorities regarding this issue. They just don't seem to be able to learn from the mistakes of other nations.
Now, how can you get this info to the meeting taking place soon?
What brains !!!! This is Fuerteventura...[8D][8D][8D]
yes cameron it does, and the thought of the euro crashing is not worth thinking about, it would be armagedon for the uk economy, there is a chance that countrys like greece and spain may leave the euro, some dealing desks have already updated their platforms to include the dracma and some other currencys,the dreaded Plan B is gathering momentum
As i've said before aa i'm not so sure it will be all doom and gloom for the Uk if the euro goes west. Theres some top think tanks that take the view we may even thrive. Won't know either way though until it actually happens. Big concern for me is us not having the proection of the Euro courts when owning and living abroard.
is it any different to owning in the usa?
Possibly not. Difference is we are all aware of how the Spanish can behave towards foreign home owners. We've all seen newsreels of them ripping down properties of foriegn homeowners with no compensation in valencia. Nearer to home most of us have heard of origo Mare.You don't hear too much of that going on in the states, well i haven't.
quote:
Originally posted by gusangus
property sales are on the increase maybe people are using this opportunity to get a holiday home for personal use cheaply
http://www.tumbit.com/news/articles/4486-sales-of-spanish-property-to-foreigners-experiences-growth.html
not according to this site gus
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Spain/Price-History
look at the exposure the banks have got, there in the prevebial
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2011/12/28/bank-repos-worth-43pc-less-than-original-valuations/
I cannot see the Euro being allowed to fail. It's too big and the bureaucrats will do everything to keep it afloat.
But it does need to be devalued against other currencies - £1.00 = E1.75 is about right.
They need to get printing Euros...that would create a more realistic exchange rate, and recapitalise the banks at the same time.
My understanding is that we can expect the pound to strengthen against the Euro next year, when investors see the pound as a more stable currency. [:D][:D][8D]
thats no good for the uk manufacturers james;(
Great for my UK pension being sent over here;)
didnt think you woz old enuff woe;)
Thanks for the positive remark Surfjames.
To a point I disagree with you directing annoyance at bankers. It is beyond debate that they caused the current recession but the one that started with Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley was not entirely predictable, even to the people in the know.
This one is 100% predictable and avoidable.
My view on this upcoming problem is that not being able to obtain a licence to rent out a property and the subsequent enforcing of this idotic law is 100%, absolutely, entirely manufactured by politicians. Politicians passed the laws in the first place. The authorities are enforcing a moratorium on licence issuing and the Ayuntamientos are issuing the fines and prosecuting people. I don't see this as anything to do with bankers, a perceived disliking of foreigners, issues with the Euro or anything else. Annoyance needs to be directed at any local or national politician who supports the ban and are pushing it's enforcement. These particular politicians are single-handedly driving Spain and the Canary Islands economies to ruin because they are preventing hundreds of thousands of people from raising the funds to pay their mortgages through lawful and reasonable means.
We need banks whether we like it or not and banks WILL fail if mortgages are not paid because people can't find the money to pay them, it's as simple as that. To a bank, one repossession is irrelevant. Re-possession on the scale which is predicted will make the banks involved unable to function because no other bank will lend to them due to the size of their liabilities on their balance sheets. If one fails, attention moves to other banks and their balance sheets. If they too have been re-possessing hundreds of properties then confidence in banks throughout the whole of Spain vanishes and others fail. This is what has been happening all over the world for the past 4 years. On 7th October 2008 RBS, the biggest bank in the world was 2 hours from total collapse meaning cash machines closing, cheques not being cleared, the lot.
In my opinion the same will happen with re-possession. Of course they can pursue you to your front door, but if they have hundreds or thousands of repossessions to deal with what exactly can they do? The very markets who they borrow money from on a daily basis don't take IOU's for settling their debts. They aren't going to say "cheers Senor banker, of course I'll wait for your 2734 legal actions to work their way through the courts, be appealed through the speedy Spanish Judicial system, and then of course I'll wait for the house (which isn't worth anywhere near the value of the loan outstanding) to be sold to someone who can't pay for their mortgage because they can't legally use it to rent to holidaymakers." What do you think?
It'll be squeaky bum time until they see sense (which I personally think they will), with a lot of completely pointless, avoidable heartache along the way with tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people thinking they are going to lose all the savings they have put in to their property, or getting a criminal record with a six-figure fine and the authorities both here and abroad pursuing them for their salaries or homes to settle mortgage arrears or massive fines.
I re-iterate my point about inviting as high ranking bank officials to this meeting in Tenerife on the 15th of January and sitting them front and centre in the front row of the room in the full knowledge that any politicians supporting the enforcement of this law and fielding the questions are PERSONALLY going to close their bank and put them and all their employees out of work. As well as all the builders, taxi drivers, restauranteurs, shop owners, plumbers, community administrators, bar owners, estate agents, car hire company employees, asesorias, lawyers, boat tour owners, cleaners, notaries, water park employees, bus drivers and anyone else who will be hit by people not being to be able to come to the island except in an AI hotel.
Remember, this is all completely and easily avoidable.
I always thought it was pandering to the large hotelliers and holiday companies that brought this on. Nothing to do with the banks..... yet.You don't have to have a mortgage to be deprived of a license and its rental income.Not everyone is going to be repossessed, but they may still have to sell because they cannot afford to run it without the money it brings in. Same thing but no bank involved.
The Canaries is a holiday destination...thus the tourists were originally catered for in hotels and apartments. Then along came the influx of foreign property owners...buying on both residential urbanisations and old touristica licensed complexes. Basically The Government is missing out on money, so they will enforce laws to gain income.
Also lets not forget some tourists are missing out on the safeguards of touristica licensed premises.
Though we dont like the law, it is Spains law and we should respect it, the only chance of change is by the ballot box and lobbying the new government.
I have a property in the USA that its not in an area zoned for tourists, so no letting and nobody argues with Uncle Sam.
'Also lets not forget some tourists are missing out on the safegaurds of touristica licensed premises'
Then they should put the proper regulations in place and enforce them.Not just say no licenses are being issued to anyone regardless.
quote:
Originally posted by fuefairy
The Canaries is a holiday destination...thus the tourists were originally catered for in hotels and apartments. Then along came the influx of foreign property owners...buying on both residential urbanisations and old touristica licensed complexes. Basically The Government is missing out on money, so they will enforce laws to gain income.
Also lets not forget some tourists are missing out on the safeguards of touristica licensed premises.
Though we dont like the law, it is Spains law and we should respect it, the only chance of change is by the ballot box and lobbying the new government.
I have a property in the USA that its not in an area zoned for tourists, so no letting and nobody argues with Uncle Sam.
Yes you were aware of the law when bought in usa not sold a property that had excellent rental potential and i bet every one in the selling chain were aware of this law in the canary's.Yep the government were not going to lose there tax on sales were they.i have a property on the island and do not rent out but i see trouble ahead for all who purchased hear the laws will keep changing to extract a few euro more from us till we give up and call it a day.
ignorance is not a defence as anyone who has had dealings with HMRC will know;)
Yes. Where were they when the estate agents were giving it large selling properties with false figures of potential rental income. I'll tell you where, sitting on their arses counting the dosh, not rocking the boat and more than happy to rake in any VAT and other purchasing taxes.The estate agents had a free hand to misinform and half of them probably didn't know the law or couldn't care less anyway.Once its sold its sold move on to the next sucker. Dead right Potash i wouldn't trust a Spanish local government official any further than i could throw them. The Spanish are not in the same league as the US and are still inundated with corruption and incompetance.
And you can't help but notice how many Estate Agents are still advertising properties as investments 'with excellent letting potential'
In this months edition of the Fuerteventura Gazette on page 7 there is a property update article that suggests the property market in Fuerte is picking and the plethora of 'bargain' properties are attracting the attention of investors.
I quote from the article 'this is apparently due to the possible resale value once the markets recover for the long term investor, but mainly due to savvy people turning to the holiday rental market as an alternative income'
Is it no wonder people are confused and mislead by articles such as this? It seems that Estate agents and Editors of publications here are quite happy to mislead the public and pull the wool over their eyes for their own gain!
If its still going on then it wouldn't do them any harm sending a few of their 'investigators' on the road to prevent any mis-selling.
Gordond wrote "It is beyond debate that they caused the current recession but the one that started with Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley was not entirely predictable, even to the people in the know."
Only if you believe a corporate owned media with economists bought by and from the banking sector. If you sell people homes who don't have jobs then it's entirely predictable they won't pay their mortgages. They knew this from the start but because they lobbied behind the scenes to remove the protections and constrictions which only existed because they had done much the same in the past then again it's entirely predictable the same thing would happen.
People bought these homes with the promise of low interest rates, the banks bundled them together then passed them off along with good investments as another good investment, they washed the problem off their hands and made a fortune in the process. They knew they were creating a bubble and like the dot com crisis they knew it wasn't based on real value, such as goods or services. They know all bubbles like that burst and as always they pull out first and exacerbate the fall. They make on the way up and eventually make on the way down while all the time in real terms wealth is yet again passed from the poor to the rich.
Goldman Sachs knew this was going to happen and changed their status from an investment bank to a high street bank before it did to ensure that they then qualified for tarp payments. With jaw dropping arrogance they then bet on the market that they would lose money because of it, they don't bet major amounts of money unless they were sure of the outcome. IIRC they made 2 billion in the process got caught and paid a fine of 5 million, with I think one guy going to jail. That's quite a scam, later the public found out about emails from the legal department warning their staff to tie up their lose ends before investigators came knocking.
Rather than the top guys getting locked up, letting the company fall and buy it up for buttons as Iceland did. Whereas we are talking of problems for a decade or more Iceland is already on the up. Instead they bailed them out with public money to carry on as before, which they are. Now they are playing with the economies and our currencies and since nothing has changed it will happen again. Except for the last time we had a strong economy to cushion the fall, not so next time.
As for the rest there is only one sector that isn't hurt by these laws and that's the AI chains, you only have to look at who benefits. Question is why would politicians back laws which hurt their own constituents and for that I would follow the money and find out in which way they benefit.
Good post.
What happened with the banks was predictable, and predicted, but those saying it would end in tears were shouted down as naysayers.
When the bad debt was bundled with the good debt into a product it was sold to other institutions whose purchasers did not understand what they were buying. Unfortunately the sort of person that works in this field cannot stand up in front of their peers and say "Hang on. I don't get this."
The law is the law and was the law when people bought.
The idea of buying a place and renting it out to pay for it stems from a money for nothing attitude that is bound to bring problems from time to time.
It was a gamble and one made without having done sufficient research.
Buying a holiday home and relying on someone else to apy for it always carried a risk.
Nobody ever moans when a gamble pays off, but when it doesn't...
Dodgy post
Can't say i agree with buying a place and renting to pay for it is a money for nothing attitude. A lot of hard work goes in to getting your own place in the sun and a lot of money has to be spent to keep it up to scratch if you need to rent it. Yes its a gamble but tell me something in life thats not.The trouble with the law in Spain is that its not entirely black and white with too many grey areas that even the local solicitors use to their advantage. Go to one solicitor and he will tell you one thing, go to another about the same subject and he will tell you something entirely different.
No one is moaning about having to have a license. In fact theres plenty would be glad to get one and pay for the privilidge. What they do seem to be moaning about is the rediculously high penalties dished out which can only be designed to bankrupt those that financially have no choice but to carry on renting. Proper regulation of how estate agents promote sales might also be something to stick on their New Years resolutions list.
Cameron wrote "Dodgy post"
Whose? His or mine?
Actually I agree with you both to a point but on the big banks he's correct.
Renting a home out for holiday rentals is very much a business and usually requires an agent who often picks them up from the airport and drops them off. Cleaners, laundry service and a phone call away for various services such as plumbers, electricians, tv, etc all of course paid for by the owner.
Long term rentals is different and so reflected in the price of rent, the house is usually looked after and is secure while someone's there. It's not so much a case of monthly profit but paying off much of the mortgage, the owner already pays rates, taxes and community charges so they shouldn't pay for a license as they contributing to the local economy as well.
But both are a risk and subject to changes and an investment is always subject to risk unless you have the power over politicians to bail you out when things go tits up, that's a privilege the majority of the population don't have. It also tells you how much of a democracy we live in since a right to a decent living standard with a say if powerful people affect it is the gauge of how real it is.
Cameron meant the post other than yours zap.
Couldn't agree more with what you say about licenses. Happy New Year.
"Couldn't agree more with what you say about licenses. Happy New Year."
By gott!
Happy New Year!
now the Brit government is chasing the same people
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8861510/Taxman-pursues-Britons-hiding-holiday-rent-on-overseas-homes.html
Just a thought and I'm not really sure if this can be done but I know of a company in the Northeast of the UK who act as an agent (my brother is one of their clients) for property owners who wish to rent out their properties (in the UK) on a SHORT TERM RESIDENTIAL BASIS. This can be anything from a few nights to a few months. The properties are usually high end apartments (Newcastle Quayside etc) and rented by clients visiting the area who dont wish to be accomodated in a hotel with tourists (popstars and the like!).
What is the tax rule on income earned on an overseas property?
Is tax paid in the uk or in Spain?
Are you allowed certain allowances against wear and tear , repairs etc?
Its a minefield.
Can anyone clarify the situation?
Small update from Janet Anscombes blog. http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/contact-details-for-the-tourism-inspectors.html Still no date confirmed for the meeting.
To answer The Cooler, you are allowed to deduct repairs etc. You are supposed to pay tax on any earnings that you make from letting your property out. When the property is not being let out you also pay the "non letting out tax" for that period of time.
This "non renting tax" is crazy. If you don't have a licence, then you are not supposed to rent your property. But they are not giving out licences. Therefore, how can they insist on a tax payment for something which, according to them, does not exist?
Surely that's "illegal" in itself? Or is there something I am missing.
No its them thats missing it. Advice given on here some time back intimated you're a mug if you pay it.True or not i'd love to know how it would stand the test in a European court of law.
TheCooler
Member
United Kingdom
9 Posts
Posted - 13 January 2012 : 18:02:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the tax rule on income earned on an overseas property?
Is tax paid in the uk or in Spain?
Are you allowed certain allowances against wear and tear , repairs etc?
Its a minefield.
Can anyone clarify the situation?
taken from Janet Anscombes site
and since, as I say, any tax in Spain goes to the national government, it will also be of no avail to say that they pay their taxes, and this is even more so if the tax goes to the British government.
http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/inspectors-to-find-and-fine-owners-of-residential-apartments-who-let-commercially.html/comment-page-1#comment-12985
I wonder where the idea that there is a tax for not renting out a house started.
There is a tax "income tax" most country's have one. It pays for the army,navy and the government wine cellar etc. As the most likely source of income for a non resident is from legal letting then thats what you pay tax on. If you do not have an income, the services of the afore mentioned worthies do not come free so you have to pay a notional income tax based on the catastral value of you property. Simples[:D]
P.S. I do not want my neighbors to rent to to tourist.I live on a residential street not a holiday complex, having to chuck little Johnny's ball back every 5 mins whilst choking my way through the burnt BBQ smoke aint my idea of a good time.[:(]
quote:
If you do not have an income, the services of the afore mentioned worthies do not come free so you have to pay a notional income tax based on the catastral value of you property. Simples
That's what is known as "IBI" in Spain and "council Tax "in the UK.
the "non Renta" tax is additional. If you own a house in Spain but DO NOT RENT IT OUT AT ANY TIME, they expect you to pay a nominal tax for that pleasure!
Emmi, I am not an expert in Spanish tax law , I am not even a beginner. I was told by someone who I belive knew what they were talking about that the IBI is as you say for your local council to spend on whatever projects they deem fit.
Your income tax or payment in lieu is for national goverment to spend on bigger things - like ships and fighter planes, something I hope La Oliva have not yet budgeted for.[:D]
I have no problem with paying taxes on any EARNED income I have received. But I do have an issue when it comes to paying any kind of tax for which I have NOT RECEIVED any income. If they need more money for ships and fighter planes, then they should be encouraging more tourists by way of licensing properties for rental etc as discussed above. More tourists, equals more spending, equals more taxes by way of VAT/IVA etc etc......it is not rocket science.
Emmi , I totally agree with you that paying tax on unearned income is unfair. I have written to Mr Cameron and told him I object to VAT and petrol tax and booze tax and stamp duty and flight tax and insurance tax and a whole lot more taxes that have nothing to do with my income or lack of it , would he listen!
In the end the tax man rules , he is unbeatable. If he catches up with you for non payment of taxes it will be very unpleasent.
I would hope that licences for holiday rentals are never granted on residential developements, it is very unfair on the people who live there.
As for rocket science that is easy , the Yanks managed to put a man on the moon but cannot balance their budget nor can we or most of the western world (Germany excepted).
So pay up and smile[}:)]
Black a lot of water has passed since the moon landing, namely Bush, now get back to the subject.
ps can i ave me ball back mister;)
Where has the idea of 'letting licenses' come from. You don't need a license to let your property.
thats the sort of talk i like to hear. could you elaborate on that statement?
appy
NO! not unless you agree to lose a few games.
P.S. I have some very nice licences for sale - cheap €1000 each. installments available (one)
quote:
Originally posted by cockney
Where has the idea of 'letting licenses' come from. You don't need a license to let your property.
Law 7, the tourist law that came into force about 15/20 years ago has some 54 clauses and a few concern letting. Basically if you own a villa or similar property that has it's own entrance then you can let that property and advertise the fact. However, if your property is part of a complex then the decision has to be made by the owners as to whether that complex is residential. If it is then you cannot let other than to family and friends without charge. If your complex is deemed to be a tourist resort then your individual property can only be let through the single agent/company that is empowered to do so. I don't remember any mention in the original text of licences.
There have been disputes by the larger holiday companies complaining that it is unfair for a single company to have sole control on letting but I do not know whether this dispute has ever been tested in the court.
music to my ears cocker. So where did all this license business originate from then and why?. As with a lot of these strange Spanish taxes you wonder how legal they are, a case in point being the much discussed non resident non rental tax.It always struck me as odd that you would have to fork out for letting someone in your own well paid for front door and even odder you still paid if you didn't..
quote:
and even odder you still paid if you didn't..
Too right - I've a real bee in my bonnet about this one! What's the penalty for not paying it, which I am inclined to do - NOT pay it I mean!
How would they know if it was not paid, as I understand, they don't claim for it by sending one a form, it seems to be a "voluntary"
submission of taxes. Or am I misunderstanding the situation?
If you start to pay it, then they know your situation, so then you are in the system. If you don't pay it then you are not in that particular system and as I understand it there may be something going on in the European Parliament about getting this STUPID tax repealed.
taken from Janet Anscombes site
Update 7 September: In respect of the private villa situation, I have had another meeting this morning with José Escobedo. The upshot is not good news.
Firstly, the Ayuntamiento has rejected any proposal to change the classification of land to mixed or touristic. Secondly, however, it wouldn't matter if they had agreed because Turismo has said, explicitly and emphatically, that under Ley 19, 2003, there is a moratorium on touristic licences which prohibits the grant of any licence other than to 5 star hotels.
http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/inspectors-to-find-and-fine-owners-of-residential-apartments-who-let-commercially.html
ah yes those same licences that there is no apparent mention of in cockers law 7. What a tangled web we weave.
I think this question has been put before. Is there anyone here who has actually been prosecuted or fined for not having a licence. Not a friend of a friend, heresay, rumour or from a magazine article, just themselves personally.
be interested to hear their experiences if anyone has.
they are not being fined for not having a licence the fine is for not having an Inspections book or a reclamacions book 9000 for each offence although one person ended up with a 48000 fine I guess this must have been a second offence
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/025/012.html
trying to establish who 'they' are.
I'll rephrase the question then to... has anyone on here been personally fined for not having said documents?.
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron
trying to establish who 'they' are.
I'll rephrase the question then to... has anyone on here been personally fined for not having said documents?.
Hmmm not exactly queueing at the door with tales of rental injustices.Can only assume either folks are a little apprehensive of putting thier experiences with the authorities on a forum or its not actually happening at the tidal wave rate we've been led to believe . Maybe give it a while longer and one might turn up.
It appears that most of the fines so far issued have been on the western islands to that end the authorities have opened a second office that will deal with the eastern islands Gran Can, Fuerty & Lanzarote some fines have apparently been issued on Gran Can as I have seen boletins issued for there, so it,s just a matter of time, with the amount of money that can be raised it will be when not if as some people seem to think.
Most of what I have seen relates to Tenerife, which seems a bit odd.
Where have you seen reference to a second office being opened?
I haven't seen any that have been issued on Gran Canaria, but maybe they have just been swamped by those on Tenerife.
One community in Caleta is to change from residential to touristic. I am surprised that any community could get the unaninimity required for that change.
QuoteOriginally posted by gusangus
It appears that most of the fines so far issued have been on the western islands to that end the authorities have opened a second office that will deal with the eastern islands Gran Can, Fuerty & Lanzarote some fines have apparently been issued on Gran Can as I have seen boletins issued for there, so it,s just a matter of time, with the amount of money that can be raised it will be when not if as some people seem to think./quote]
As far as revenue gained from such fines goes i'd be inclined to think it won't be as much as would be gained from a well run licence system with year in year out contributions. They may well get a few big hits to start with but it will all dry up sooner or later when people get wise or are forced to give up renting. So what then? No more dinero for them thats what.
I also have to wonder which holiday destination will get lucky with the thousands of private renters who would have gone to fuerteventura if the properties that were now not trading were available? Our islands loss will be thier gain.
The Lawyers advice is being heeded about quoting the Urban Letting Law. Have a look at this advert.... http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/rentals/caleta-de-fuste/193524
Whats the difference between a residential short let and a touristic short let?.I don't see how it conforms..... its short and its to non family and friends. Any idea which lawyer advised it fi and how will it make a difference?
Jose Escobedo was one of the Lawyers mentioned. Have a look at his blog posts. http://www.escobedo.net/
I think that the idea really was to just not mention short lets or anything Touristic by nature inorder to delay being caught because they then have to prove that you are letting for a shorter period than 3 months and also offering a Touristic service. You can legally let a Residential property for three months or more. The add from Holiday lettings mentions short stays though which I was surprised to see.
Ok thanks.just read it again and they state it conforms about 4 times in the ad. They obviously think it will make an impact on someone.In truth i think most folks are so confused by all this nonsense they don't know if they're coming or going.
Its just a delaying tactic really and was only recommended to people that have no option but to continue advertising and letting out their property so that they can afford the mortgage repayments.
There is a very good explanation about the law here http://www.escobedo.net/index.php/Escobedo_abogados/articles/holiday_rentals_in_the_canary_isles_questions_answers
I'm pleased to see that Escobedo is referring to Law 7. The lettings section of this law was brought about by complaints from tenants of residential apartments who were being inconvenienced by tourists asking them for help because there was not a properly manned reception office on the complex. There was also the problem of noise from tourists occupying residential apartments who by nature make much more noise than normal residents. From memory, the law differentiates between Villas which have a separate entrance and can not be considered as part of a complex. They are free to let but their tenants are still expected to behave reasonably and not cause a nuisance to their neighbours.
Apartments are of course a different case where by design the tenants are living in much closer proximity. For this reason the individual complexes must be declared Tourist or Residential and it is usually the older units that are the later and I would imagine very few would wish to change. A Tourist complex must have a 24 hour reception office a life guard and life belts for the pool and fire extinguishers. There is also a requirement that ALL lettings must be made through ONE appointed company or agent. It is apartment owners who falling foul of the law either by letting a Residential apartment to tourists or not using the approved agent for letting a tourist apartment.
Incidentally the law states that election vehicles with loud speakers must not be used in tourist area.[:)]
So glad to hear that Cockney. I hate loudspeakers.[:)]
TFL LAWYERS PRESENTATION TOOK PLACE AT ADEJE ON 21ST DECEMBER 2011 – 11:00
TFL lawyers had an intense debate about the Canary Islands Governments controversial plan to eradicate illegal holiday rentals in tourist areas . Reactions from the meeting below....
The function of Government and the Office of Tourism is to improve the quantity and quality of tourists to economically benefit the Canary Islands, without fear or favour. For many years, the administration had rarely implemented the laws which restrict property owners from renting their accommodation to tourists (defined as renters for less than 3 months) leading many to believe that although the law was in place, like many laws here and elsewhere, there was no intention to prosecute the law. However in 2011, some 16 years after the laws were passed, Turismo appears to have decided to prosecute. Some questions we need to Turismo to answer follow.
1.- Are Turismo aware that fining 7000 people for alleged illegal renting will devastate the tourist industry in Tenerife?
Removing at least 10,000 tourist beds is the equivalent to closing around 30 hotels, which will cause a shortage of accommodation meaning many tourists will take their holidays elsewhere. This may create some business in the short term for hotels with empty rooms, but the truth is that people who want to stay in apartments do not want to stay in hotels, especially hotels which are 30 years old, in need of renovation, and will simply go elsewhere for their holiday. Turismo's remit is to increase the number of tourists coming to Tenerife. This action will undoubtedly reduce the number of tourists coming to Tenerife.
2.- Are Turismo aware that their actions will mean that many people who use the rental income for payment of mortgages, will now default on their mortgages, causing many problems for banks who hold these mortgages?
A lot property owners have mortgages which have a value in excess of the value of the property, especially if the property is embargoed by Turismo as a result of an 18,000 euro fine, and will simply abandon the property. This means additional problems for the Spanish Banks and Spanish economy, which holds 300 billion euros in mortgage debt, 50% of which is already considered "troubled". At a time when the whole of Spain is on the edge of another recession and the whole of the eurozone is in deep trouble, this is the last thing needed in the banking system.
3- Are Turismo aware that their actions will cause massive problems in the Tenerife property market?
Since August 2007, the Tenerife property market has been falling in value, and it is now considered prices are 40% to 50% below their August 2007 value. Tursimo's actions will mean that thousands of people will put their properties for sale. Additionally if there is no prospect for economically renting properties, then there will be fewer potential buyers, and the combination of lower demand and higher supply always ends up with one thing – another huge drop in the value of property. To cause another drop in property price will be disastrous for Tenerife.
4.- Are Turismo aware that their actions will result in investors completely ignoring Tenerife as a place to buy property?
Investors are looking for a return on their investment, and will not be interested in the kind of returns available from the Exploitation companies, typically 2% or 3% maximum, which are below the value which can be obtained by putting the money in the bank. Tenerife needs investors, this will make them go elsewhere.
5.- Are Turismo aware that their actions will devastate the business's of restaurants, bars, taxis etc, by reducing the number of "independent travellers" who make their own arrangements to fly, and book their apartments and villas directly?
Many of these business's will close, as they rely on people in self catering accommodation to eat, drink etc in the resort. In particular, with the upsurge in hotels offering "all inclusive", the number of people using these and other facilities will drop massively. In some areas in Tenerife, it is estimated that "all inclusive" is now 80% of the hotel offering.
6.- Are Turismo aware that fully implementing the law which means that in a tourist complex only one company has the monopoly to arrange tourist rentals, that this will mean increased prices for the holiday makers and decreased returns for owners?
In any market place, a company which has a monopoly always takes advantage of their position to increase price. Additionally standards will drop due to lack of competition, and the amount of money passed to property owners by the exploitation company will decrease, devaluing the investment and increasing the likelihood of the owners selling.
7.- Are Turismo aware of the effect they will have on many communities of owners?
Many people will be unable to pay their community fees, and already many communities of owners are struggling to collect community fees which means that some community of owners will become bankrupt and others to ensure the properties are maintained, will have to dramatically increase their community fees
8.- Are Turismo aware that they will reduce to zero the amount of money paid in tax by some owners of apartments and villas in Tenerife.
Contrary to common belief, many apartment and villa owners did in fact pay income tax and in the cases of business's, igic to the Hacienda. Of course when the owners can no longer rent their apartments, there will be no tax to collect. Also from a tax perspective of course, any detrimental effect on the property market or banking system will mean less sales, so the 6.5% tax on sales, and the plus valia will be lost to the tax authorities. Less people doing cleaning, pool maintenance, property maintenance will mean more people unemployed and being supported financially by the government.
9.- Are Turismo aware that their actions will mean that Tenerife will become the only place in the world where it is virtually impossible to rent a villa?
The law relating to letting property was introduced to try to stop people letting in apartments complexes that had either no touristic licence, or no exploitation company. However this has been extended to include villas and mean that it is virtually impossible to own a villa that fulfils the criteria, as the criteria was create for apartments, not villas. No one can apply for a tourist licence because of the moratorium, so anyone who wants to stay in a villa, will no longer come to Tenerife.
10.- In conclusion, it is clear that Turismo's actions are far reaching, and will have a devastating effect across the entire economy of Tenerife. From the effect on the number of tourist beds available, to the loss of revenue to the Hacienda and the bars, restaurants, shops and taxis. From the effect on the banks, to the effect on property prices, and the deterioration of standards due to the withdrawal of competition.
However the biggest effect will be when news of thousands of mostly non resident owners getting fined 18,000€ is published in the British or other foreign media. It will be presented in a way that will give such negative publicity to the Canary Islands and Tenerife in particular, that tourists will not wish to come here, in case they find themselves in "illegal" accommodation. It cannot be sufficiently emphasized how important it is that Turismo step back from their present course of action. This will not only detrimentally affect the tourist economy and the property market, it threatens to destroy the whole economy of Tenerife, which is so heavily dependent on the Tourist industry and the ownership of property by foreign nationals.
There is an alternative strategy, but this requires a lot of work but can achieve all of the objectives, and is applied in a way that is less aggressive but still stops renting in Residential Apartment Complexes.
While it makes absolute sense to try to apply strict controls to the letting of properties in the tourist market, banning people who own villas from doing so, and creating a monopolistic system in the tourist complexes, is not the way to go forward, in any case the latter surely would be considered within European Law to be an anti-competitive practice. Much better would be to create a system of registration and inspection. This would benefit the tourist sector in several ways.
1) Properties being used for Tourism lets would have to be Registered so a registration fee, perhaps every six months could be charged.
2) Inspections could be made compulsory every six months, thereby creating desperately needed employment and this could be charged.
3) Owners could be made to either be resident in Tenerife or have a (registered) agent in Tenerife by Turismo / Hacienda.
4) All Tourist Lets would have to be notified to Turismo / Hacienda. The owner / agent would then be responsible for paying tax on the let.
The effect of the aforementioned would be that money could be generated through registration and inspection fees, tax would be paid on tourist lets and properties that did not have the proper safety equipment would be deregistered and / or fined. This would also create employment for many Canarian people in Registration, Administration and Inspection. If there were 10,000 properties registered at 500€ every six months in Tenerife, this would generate annually 10m euros, enough to employ at least 500 people. This does not include the massive increase in tax revenues.
Additionally, because owners could advertise themselves as "legal" and "Turismo approved" more foreign tourists would be inclined to come to Tenerife. The properties would be safe and fully equipped to minimum standards, so guests would be more likely to enjoy their holidays in Tenerife and come back the following year.
Turismo has one razon d'etre; that is to encourage a growth of quality, sustainable tourism in the Canary Islands. This attack on private lettings of property is working in entirely the wrong direction, reducing the number of available properties, by doing so increasing prices, putting more people into "all inclusive" options and by making less attractive the whole idea of tourists coming to Tenerife, and even more importantly, returning for a second and third visit as opposed to going to the emerging tourist destinations like Turkey, Greece, Croatia, Thailand and the Arab countries like Egypt, Tunisia, Dubai, and so on.
Turismo must turn back, remove the fines, issue an amnesty for people renting in Residential Complexes, and stop attacking the people who financed the economic growth enjoyed by Tenerife in the late 20th and early 21st century. This is not a game of cat and mouse with Turismo or Ashotel, this is not a minor issue that can be ignored. This is a colossal issue, with total fines said to be in excess of 100,000,000 euros being imposed on hapless apartment and villa owners, whose only "crime" was to permit someone to stay in their property for a few hundred euros. The alternative is economic misery, more timeshare, more all inclusive hotels and the end of Tenerife as a significant quality tourist destination.
Good to see those responsible on Tenerife are being told the error of thier ways. Lets hope they take heed of what all sensible people could already see..
Update....meeting tomorrow.... http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/public-meeting-and-illegal-letting-lobbying-association-announcement.html/comment-page-1#comment-13816
Should be interesting to see the outcome.
I read the Spanish papers regularly and this issue has not been mentioned much if at all. It will be interesting to see if it crops up soon.
I see there is a community in Tenerife that is reapplying for turistic status, and that they need unaninimity to make that change.
I can imagine making such a change might cause friction. There are probably non renters on the complex who may well find they incur costs that are for the benefit of the renters. If an owner didn´t want it and voted against they might have to face the ire of those that rely on renting properties to make it pay,
The lack of publicity around the issue means that many owners are ignorant about what is going on in Tenerife and that´s owners in Tenerife.
I don´t think many people here have looked into the situation thoroughly.
Can't you mods. do something about snipping up these mile-long threads into digestible length pages?
Is it slow to load for you Waggy? Loading ok for me at the moment. Sometimes Admin create pages. Maybe they will do so with this thread.
Trebol I contacted a journalist from one of the online papers about the Government press release when it came out first to see if they would be running with the story. I was told it would have to be passed on to the Editor for approval first. No surprises that they didnt run with it because it would upset other fee paying advertisers who are trying to sell properties.
Details of the online petition will be on Janets website soon. Signatures from all of the Islands are welcome.[:)]
Hi fifi, It loads OK but takes six years of scrolling to get to the bottom of the thread. On most sites each page on a thread carries about 10-12 posts, say.
Jand's Hierro thread made me dizzy by the time I got down to the business end. But it was worth it when I did.
press end doh!
Oh I never knew you could do that Appy.[:I] Better still it works.[:)]I used to always move the bar at the side. Try the end button like Appy suggests Waggy.[:)]
yes press END to take you to the bottom and HOME to take you back to the top[:D]
If you click on the arrow next to the name of the last poster in the 'Last Post' column, this will take you to the bottom. The arrow at the far right will take you to the top. Same as End and Home really.
I wonder why, when cut and pasted (albeit very informative) text is entered in a different format, the whole topic horizontal sizing alters to fit this and not the other way round. Happens with pictures sometimes too. Hey ho! Not that important really. GET READY FOR WORK!!!
I never noticed the little arrows before or the home button. You learn something new every day.[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by HH
I wonder why, when cut and pasted (albeit very informative) text is entered in a different format, the whole topic horizontal sizing alters to fit this and not the other way round. Happens with pictures sometimes too. Hey ho! Not that important really. GET READY FOR WORK!!!
Its beyond me HH.[;)][:D]
Update on blog.... http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/press-release-issued-to-spanish-media-introducing-illegal-letting-association-alotca.html/comment-page-1#comment-13947
Press release for Spanish media introducing illegal letting lobbying association – ALOTCA
March 15th, 2012
This is my translation of the press release that was issued to the Spanish media for today's meeting:
In respect of the so-called "Special touristic action plan of inspection and control of establishments or accommodation units and the diagnosis of places exploited touristically without prior communication of starting activity or lacking authorisation" being carried out by the Inspection and Fines Department of the Canarian Government's Board of Touristic Regulation and Promotion (presidencia)
a meeting has been called on Thursday 15 March 2012 at 10am in the CDTCA Centre in Avda Las Jarcias opposite the IES in El Galeón.
The meeting will present the Association of those affected by the Canarian Tourism Regulation Law (Asociación de afectados por la ley de ordenación de turismo de Canarias) – ALOTCA – and will set out the reasons which have motivated the organizers of the event to create the association.
The above mentioned "action plan" is creating social alarm in Canarian touristic areas given that, according to official sources, more than 7,500 administrative procedures have been opened imposing fines on apartment owners and non-resident family investors, as well as small family businesses, fines ranging from at least €18,000 up to €60,000 in some cases. No family economy can withstand such a level of sanction at the present time.
Although this campaign of sanctions, unprecedented since the passing of Tourism Regulation Law 7/1995, has a commendable objective (control of accommodation units without licence or in irregular situation), it was not preceded by any information campaign and is therefore creating a state of mind among foreign investors that is worrying given the government's disproportionate punitive level (€18,000 minimum fine for an apartment in an irregular situation).
The existing current legal framework in these islands and the touristic moratorium in the concession of new licences prevents the legalization of these units. In turn, the disappearance, liquidation or insolvency of previous operators of touristic apartments have placed foreign investors and apartment owners in a marginal position without possibility of regularization.
Indeed, the autonomous Government appears to have opted for a protectionist "all inclusive" model of tourism offered in the main by the hotels in the tourist areas, but it has not taken into account that this model is extremely damaging for small family businesses (restaurants, taxis, shops etc.,) which depend on the tourism of those who prefer to rent apartments privately.
For their part, some companies operating with exploitation licences in the touristic apartment market offer their services to owners through contracts with intolerable and abusive conditions since, protected by the unity of exploitation principle, they are operating in a sector of the market that rewards and encourages a monopoly.
In the midst of a global recession and with a property market crisis without precedent in the recent history of these islands, when there are ever decreasing numbers of foreign investors prepared to buy property here, and in an economy that is already suffering, all we needed was a plan of this magnitude (7,500 inspections carried out mainly on the internet) to give such a devastating message to foreigners.
Before this is exposed in the foreign media we need to raise the awareness of the relevant authorities so that they apply the power of the law with restraint and in accordance with the social reality of our islands.
Our association considers that it is possible to seek a consensual solution with the Canarian touristic authorities which will benefit all sectors which are threatened (touristic apartment owners, hoteliers, agencies, taxis, shopkeepers, etc.), and for this reason we have asked them repeatedly to meet us. To date, these requests have been ignored by the administration.
Continuing with this process of fines will produce an unprecedented exodus of investors as well as the desertification of some touristic areas which cannot compete legally with the hotels.
Association of those affected by the Canarian tourism regulation law
Asociación de afectados por la ley de ordenación de turismo de Canarias – ALOTCA
Re: Illegal letting lobbying association – ALOTCAhttp://www.thetenerifeforum.com/showthread.php?104252-Illegal-letting-lobbying-association-%E2%80%93-ALOTCA&s=749192024c09f06f6712eff833d109c0&p=496155#post496155
The public meeting to introduce the Association of those affected by the Canarian Tourism Regulation Law (Asociación de afectados por la ley de ordenación de turismo de Canarias – ALOTCA) was held in the Costa Adeje Tourist Development Centre this morning. It was very well attended, with almost every seat in a room for around 150 taken. The panel comprised the original members of the association, namely Maria Ereza Blasco (president), Santiago Saenz and José Escobedo (secretaries), Paul Ruane and myself. We were pleased to see present, and to count on the support of, the tourism councillors of both Arona and Adeje: these are very much on board and will be taking part with the association in discussions with Turismo. We were also gratified to see journalists there from the local Spanish press and Island Connections.
The meeting was opened by José introducing the concept of the association, and reiterating the latest situation on the appeals. One of several defences offered by the lawyers was that an internet advert in its own right proved nothing, neither that a property had been let, nor even that it had been offered for let, which is what the law specifically prohibits. This was because no proof could be provided that any given owner had placed an advert online. Turismo's response was that they did not accept any of the arguments but were prepared to reduce the fines by €3,000. José then referred to a letter received only this morning from Turismo replying to a list of ten further arguments against the law, drawn up as part of the appeals process. These arguments included the fact that the enforcement of the legislation would cause, and was causing, a flood of properties on the market; that fines would reduce owners ability to pay their community fees; that it was having a negative effect far wider than just those being fined, and was affecting the likes of restaurants, taxi drivers, etc.; that people were being deterred from coming to Tenerife at all ... and so on. Turismo's response was that illegal activity was damaging Tenerife's tourism, that the Government's stated and confirmed aim was to maximise the benefit to official tourism, and that all the items on the list were irrelevant and neither the responsibility nor problem of Turismo.
There is clearly, at present, no chance of a change of heart, and it was the feeling that this was the case, even before this morning's letter arrived, that fed the need for the formation of the association. The president of the association said that current tourism legislation was obsolete and did not reflect the current situation. The afectados, she said, were not just apartment owners, but everyone involved in tourism in the wider sense, i.e. businesses, gestors, estate agents, taxis, restaurants, etc – the whole of south Tenerife's economy lived on tourism.
Paul Ruane then spoke about Los Gigantes and how he had recently asked a visiting friend if he wanted him to find accommodation. The friend had replied that he was staying in Abama. Paul said this was of course fine, but stressed to the meeting how it would be very different if he was an hotelier with a friend wanting to stay in a private apartment or villa. He would have had to say this was illegal and his friend was not allowed to do so. The boot most definitely wouldn't fit the other foot, he said. He stressed that the association is not fighting anyone, including the hotels. We are not seeking enemies, he said, but looking to solve a problem. We understand the need to protect tourism but we also need to encourage tourism. He referred to the petition which will shortly be available online: under Spanish legislation, if 15,000 signatures are collected, an application can be made to modify or change a law. This is a recognized Spanish legal procedure but has to be applied for. This application is now in process. As soon as it is available, I will post links to it in as many places as possible, and the journalist from Island Connections said she would ensure it was in her paper as well.
I then read out a selection of comments that have been made on my website which reflected the damage being done to Tenerife by this enforcement, and the fear and anger which it has generated – as I said, generated among one of Tenerife's main tourist markets by those who are supposed to be promoting tourism.
Santiago then read out the articles of the association. These are lengthy and I only have an original draft to hand anyway, so I can't reproduce them here right now. I'll make them available when I can. In brief, though, they refer to our stated aim to make the law, and the damage being caused by the way it is being enforced, as widely known as possible through the press and through meetings, and to try to negotiate a consensual way forward that benefits Tenerife as a whole; to protect the rights and interests of everyone involved in tourism in Tenerife; to guarantee the right of ownership, use and enjoyment of property by owners under both the Spanish Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and to exercise the right to petition to modify the law to achieve the above.
The meeting was then opened to the floor. (next post) ...
Default Re: Illegal letting lobbying association – ALOTCA
The tourism councillors had to leave at this point for other meetings, but already had a very good idea through previous briefings of the types of issues that would arise, and which did indeed arise. I hope I'll at least convey the gist of the questions and answers, though these parts of such meetings are inevitably confused at times.
Q: will there be a cost for membership?
A: We are at the early stages with the association. The papers still have to be presented in Madrid, and at that point we will call another meeting. We will decide then whether there will be a cost, and if so, how much.
Q: Is there/will there be resistance to the association from, e.g. sole agents, residents?
A: The association does not directly affect residential complexes: illegal letting is a different issue. We are seeking to help everybody in order to benefit Tenerife, and sole agents who operate well will have nothing to fear.
Q: Do residents need to fear that the association seeks to allow tourism on their complexes?
A: Many residential complexes want to introduce touristic lets, and if they do not, then the law supports them. Ideally, in our view, residential complexes should be allowed to decide for themselves. If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make. We are not remotely trying to introduce or legalise tourism in residential complexes that do not want this. The aim is to quash threats, and it has to be said that those threats include some made by residents, e.g. insisting that only owners can use their own apartments.
Q: Has the association drafted new legislation if it is seeking to change the law?
A: We are seeking to modify the law, not redraft it in its entirety, but even so, we are at too early a stage and cannot yet know the extent to which modifications will be possible, nor the amount of support the association will have. At an appropriate time, however, we will draft new legislation if this is needed.
Q: Where is the petition?
A: As soon as the association has a significant number of members, a website will be set up for an online petition. This is a recognized procedure in Spain, and an application has to be made. This application has now been made and is in process. The link will be made as widely available as possible, certainly on my website and in Island Connections. Those signing the petition will need to provide their name and NIE as is standard in Spanish petition procedure.
At this point concern was expressed over providing such details, with some present worried that such information would give the Government a hit list to target. The president stressed that this was the only way under Spanish law that a petition would work, and that data protection laws meant people weren't endangered. There was continuing concern, however, and there were some suggestions that passport numbers might be sufficient. This will of course be clarified when the petition is ready for signing. Meanwhile, I'll repeat here what I said at this point at the meeting. This petition will not just be signed by people who are letting, whether illegally or not. Hopefully, it will contain the details of many Spanish and Canarians too, most of whom will be affected in other ways, i.e. by their businesses suffering. There will also be signatures from residents who want clarity on their own residential complex status; from people who want to buy here but who are afraid to proceed with the situation as it is; and from people who just don't want to stay in hotels, particularly all-inclusive ones. The names on the list will not indicate a particular interest in letting, and the inspectors will know this. I also made the point that the current inspectors are fully stretched in any case, and that they have enough internet adverts to keep them occupied ... and that a name and NIE on a petition aren't evidence of any action, let alone an illegal one. Moreover, even if they were to try to connect such information with illegal letting they would still need to find a related advert, and if such an advert existed they would be likely to find it anyway.
Q: Could the case not be taken to the Court of Human Rights because the current law is discriminatory?
A: The association could, eventually, take this route if there was enough support but we would hope to achieve our aims before getting that far down the line.
There was some discussion as to whether the law actually was discriminatory, with varying opinions. Certainly I know myself of nationalities other than British who have been fined.
Q: Someone who looks after apartments on an ex touristic/timeshare complex asked what she could do now that the timeshare company has ceased operating there.
A: There was some dispute over this. The sole agent on Paloma Beach, John Parkes, said that the complex was therefore dormant touristic and that a sole agency could be created if 50+1% of the owners agreed to appoint one. The president of the association disagreed with this, and said it was not so simple. John said that he had spoken with the Cabildo very recently and had this confirmed, but Maria reiterated that there was more involved than this. Certainly John has had this information from the Tenerife Cabildo, but Maria is ex-Turismo (Government) so it seems to me possible that the Cabildo has the requirements as detailed by John, but that the Government might have additional rules. I am not in a position to judge this myself.
Q: Why should tourists be allowed to change the law of a country they're just visiting?
A: I said that I imagined there would be serious resistance from some quarters to being described as tourists. People who have invested significant amounts of money in the island over many years, who support local businesses, who employ local professionals – these people will consider themselves as far more involved with Tenerife than as simply tourists.
Q: What is a tourist anyway?
A: There were several answers at this point with panel members seeing various interpretations to the question apart from the purely factual. In the end I spoke to what seemed to be behind the question, namely whether a contract of three months was the defining line between touristic and residential letting. As I said, urbanistic law allows for short and long term rental contracts. Long term ones are for a year or more, and deemed residential. Short term ones are for any period under a year, and are for specific purposes, i.e. not residential. As such, Turismo have told us that they could deem any such contracts to be touristic, but would not in fact take any action against short term lets of three months or more, even though this period is not defined in the law itself.
Q: Is the association not actually going into battle against the hotels?
A: We are not seeking to be opponents to the hotels themselves, but having said that, the association is the first real voice to speak against the hotel association, Ashotel, which has such influence at high levels. We don't view it as the primary focus, however. First and foremost, rather than battling anyone, we are trying to help all those with an interest in Tenerife.
The meeting came to an end at this point and as people started to head for the door, we asked them to come back to sign up to the association to coordinate future actions if they wanted to do so. I fear there might have been some confusion in this respect, and think that some people could have thought they were signing the petition. To be clear: the petition will be online, and will be available as soon as possible. What people signed today was the association affiliation. Hopefully most were clear on this point, but if anyone thought they were signing the petition, please be aware that you will actually need to sign it when it is available. As far as signing for the association is concerned, however, I will shortly have a form available on my website.
As I said above, we will call another meeting as soon as we have the paperwork back from Madrid, and I'll update, of course, if there is any further information in the meantime. JAA
quote:
Originally posted by appy ammer
press end doh!
AA, All I've got is 3 buttons after the time and date and a 'go to top' button on the right.
The button on your keyboard that says 'End' on it
Doesn't appear to have one, Islewing, it's a mini mac with a mac keyboard.
I've found the 'go to end' button though, it's after the name of the last poster on the topics board.
Hi Waggy, I had a google for you. Have a look and see if this works for you.... http://brokensecrets.com/2011/01/10/finding-home-and-end-on-a-mac-keyboard/
Thanks, fifi, but WOW - if I press the home key and control it takes me out of Safari and Google.
and the forum, thats the idea;) hee hee
quote:
Originally posted by waggy
Doesn't appear to have one, Islewing, it's a mini mac with a mac keyboard.
I've found the 'go to end' button though, it's after the name of the last poster on the topics board.
So THAT's what the little arrow is for!!
Thanks
The first case of a person who was fined €18,000 for advertising his bungalow for rent on a website having the fine recinded when it was appealed is being discussed on this link. It will be interesting to see what happens after this. http://www.thetenerifeforum.com/showthread.php?104252-Illegal-letting-lobbying-association-%E2%80%93-ALOTCA/page2&s=d965f50687184ecbc78434909176560d
Interested to see that the person concerned was in a word 'informed' on.This i believe is where the majority of the information obtained by the local touristic departments is obtained, with too much emphasis being placed on internet advertising.For a few reasons.
1 That after a conversation with the big cheese at holiday lettings, they categorically stated that they have never at any time been approached for information on clients by any official Canarian department. And due to strict data protection laws would not be at liberty to reveal anything anyway unless it was an extemely serious case, probably unrelated to renting.
2 In a Janet Anscome article it states that it is highly unlikely, maybe even impossible for any interaction between the touristic departments and other bodies incuding the Hacienda. So no inf from there then.
3 Even if they surf the websites for details it would be very hard to differentiate between one apartment and another on a complex given the fact they all look more or less the same.
Which leaves the info arriving from a bit closer to home.
The boletins actually state where they got information from the internet, With 7500 fines issued thats a lot of unhappy residents complaing about illegal lets.and if you follow the trend of boletins they are inspecting all the bars as well so who is complaining about them? .to get the number of any apartment all they have to do is acsess the land registry data base. which they have to anyway to find out if the complex is residential or turistic and enter the contact name that is given on the internet and the data base will come up with all relevant information date bought nie numbers etc etc most properties on the internet have numbers or indentifying information on them, and as they are investigating law breaking the data protection act does not come into it as that would be withholding information and obstructing the process of law.
oops
The interesting thing about this case is that they enforced the expiration date due to a backlog of cases.
Translated from the Boletin.... (original case)
He announced that, in accordance with the provisions of art degrees. 42 of Law 30/1992 on the Legal Regime of Public Administrations and Common Administrative Procedure, as amended by Law 4/1999 of 13 January, and art degrees. 4 of Decree 190/1996 of August 1, regulating the procedure for the exercise of sanctioning powers in tourism and tourism inspection, the deadline set for the resolution and notice of this procedure is 6 months, after which, expiration occurs.
Translated from the Boletin....(the appeal case)....
Having regard to the proposal made by the Instructor of the disciplinary proceedings recorded and the records on it, and because of the slow steps in the practice of notifications to expedientado and may not proceed at all times with sufficient speed in processing due the body of existing work in this Administrative Unit, and made all possible means available, there has been the expiration of the probe, according to the provisions of Articles 4 and 6 of Decree 190/1996 of August 1, regulatory procedure for the exercise of sanctioning powers in tourism and tourism inspections, and compliance with the provisions of Article 44.2 of Law 30/1992 of 26 November on the Legal Regime of Public Administrations and Common Administrative Procedure
There may be further appeal though....
RESOLVE: (from appeal case)
Declare the forfeiture of the procedure and the disciplinary file, ordering the Service Inspection and Sanctions, within their plans, turn to the establishment inspection recorded in order to check the status of it.
This resolution does not end the administrative route, and it fits lodge an appeal before the Hon. Mr. President of the Canary Islands, within one month from the day following its notification, in accordance with the provisions of articles 114 and following of Law 30/1992 of 26 November, Legal Regime of Public Administrations and Common Administrative Procedure, as amended by Law 4/1999 of 13 January (BOE No 12 of 14.1.99), and without prejudice to any other remedies that may be made.
In the event that the appellant has a representative and it is shown that representation must be given power of attorney to record reliable, either notarized or certified copy prior alignment or certifying the photocopy with the original, according to the provisions in Article 32 of Law 30/1992 of 26 November on the Legal Regime of Public Administrations and Common Administrative Procedure, as amended by Law 4/1999 of 13 January (BOE No 12 of 01/14/99 .) - Santa Cruz de Tenerife, January 31, 2012. - The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Ricardo Fernandez de la Puente Armas.
quote:
Originally posted by gusangus
The boletins actually state where they got information from the internet, With 75000 fines issued thats a lot of unhappy residents complaing about illegal lets.and if you follow the trend of boletins they are inspecting all the bars as well so who is complaining about them? .to get the number of any apartment all they have to do is acsess the land registry data base. which they have to anyway to find out if the complex is residential or turistic and enter the contact name that is given on the internet and the data base will come up with all relevant information date bought nie numbers etc etc most properties on the internet have numbers or indentifying information on them, and as they are investigating law breaking the data protection act does not come into it as that would be withholding information and obstructing the process of law.
You better inform them at holiday lettings then as they seem to think otherwise.There has as i said before been no contact from any cananarian authorites to their site so i'm not sure how they managed to get anything worthwhile from the internet. Any ideas? Im well aware not all 75,000 have been identified the same way,but on a large comlex just one disgruntled resident or president can cause a lot of owners a lot of damage.And i've no doubt it's happening.
cameron look here and scroll down to contact the owner on each property guess what it´s got the names of the owners the rest has previously been said http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/caleta-de-fuste/
If your property is deemed legal why not put your name up for contact?.
quote:
Originally posted by fifi
Cameron ive lost your email address. Can you send it to fifisplace@gmail.com please. Thanks.[:)]
sent it fifi
Great. Thanks. Very bad internet connection here today.
I saw this on another Forum and thought it was good....
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x469/fifisforumphotos/ban.gif)(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x469/fifisforumphotos/shark.gif)(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x469/fifisforumphotos/ban.gif)
If you like to take your holidays in a Residential apartment with all the comforts of home.... you now have to buy one.[:(][:(][:(]
Hi guys, this is my first post even though i have been a member for several years. So hello to you all
Just to let you know I was talking to Holiday lettings about our apartment today and their take on the issue is, that if you take your apartment off their web site because you are concerned about the licence issue then if you want to re-instruct you will have to produce a licence from that point on. When I mentioned to them that I only started advertising with them back in September and that they must have known then there was an issue, their reply was that they thought that it was only a concern in Tenerife at that time but now they are getting worried/concerned even over Fuerteventura.
Clearly they are worried about their own necks now
On a different note has Imagine closed I heard a rumour that they were looking for a buyer, also did Paddy's re-open.
Take care Steve
Even if this rediculous purge on bonafide homeowners is eventually stopped it appears irrepairable damage has now been done. This must have a serious effect on people wanting or even able to holiday in the Canaries in the future. The big hoteliers must be rubbing their hands with glee, as any serious competition is gradually being eroded away... but then wasn't that always the intention ?.
How many licences exist in rural places.
Who knows how many even exist in the major resorts.
And if there's even half a dozen in places like El Cotillo i'd be very surprised.I hope the Cotillo Beach has got its act together now as it might be the only spot available soon. Not good news for naturists.Perhaps someone has some figures as the touristic department obviously have no idea. it'll be interesting reading either way.
Still through it all theres a couple of positives, all will be comfort and tranquillity in the old folks homes, and at least they are making the effort to promote the island more to homosexuals.
Ps - They have a similar purge on legallity in Portugal. But they are not idiots and are issueing licences in a controlled manner, in order not only to promote tourism with proper regulations but to provide a nice income in licence revenue and inspection fees.
Happy days
Welcome to the Forum Steve and thanks for the information.[:)]
Turismos website.http://www.fuerteventuraturismo.com/Alojamiento.aspx?selectedparent=4&selectedchild=null
There seems to be a definite need for more Rural properties. There are only 16 licensed and listed on the website.
Thats interesting fi. 16 won't go far.
Someone posted a German website on here somewhere. Not only did the owners provide names for contact but the address of the place as well. Now thats what i call confidence. Or perhaps the krauts are exempt.
Just also been thinking, if its correct that 75,000 owners are in the process of being prosecuted and fined, and on average an apartment or bungalow has 4 beds in situ, that is a potential 300,000 beds no longer available. And if they carry on the persecution at the rate they are, they may well double it. Can the islands afford to lose maybe more than half a million beds that were previously on offer?. I doubt it, as to be identified and subsequently prosecuted they must all have been doing a reasonable amount of business. Food for thought maybe.
There are 7,500 fines being processed at the moment but that is just the start of them. Time to recalculate there Cameron.[;)][:D][:D][:D]
Can someone tell me if the Spanish Owners and those with residencia who are letting their properties out are being persued in the same way, many of them still seem to be advertising, do they know something we don't?
I thought it was a lot myself. Have a look at gusangus's post fifi. I was always told never to believe all i heard. I should have listened.[;)]
whats that, 30,000 with more to come.Its still a lot
quote:
Originally posted by JayDee
Can someone tell me if the Spanish Owners and those with residencia who are letting their properties out are being persued in the same way, many of them still seem to be advertising, do they know something we don't?
The law effects everyone in the same way JayDee. Unfortunately many people are unaware that this law even exists and also many people choose to continue advertising even when they do know about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron
I thought it was a lot myself. Have a look at gusangus's post fifi. I was always told never to believe all i heard. I should have listened.[;)]
whats that, 30,000 with more to come.Its still a lot
2010 Inspection figures Translated by Google...."In 2010 was held in the Canary Islands for 3,236 total inspection activities, of which
1,687 corresponded to the province of Las Palmas and 1,549 in the province of Santa Cruz de Tenerife,"
Source....Government press release
I havent seen a similar press release for 2011 yet with the figures although the Tenerife lawyers have quoted 7,500 as being the amount being processed at the moment accross the Islands.
when i said 30,000 i meant beds.
Would they be single beds or double beds that you are referring to?[;)][:D][:D][:D]
Just joking....I know what you mean Cameron.[:)]
bunk beds actually. [;)]
Thank you for putting it right gusangus. Wasn't sure if it was wishful thinking or just a slip of the zeros
Sorry if I have missed something but what is the situation regarding an individual private house NOT on a complex.?
Hi Emmi, private villa owners can – in theory at least – apply to the Cabildo to register their property as touristic. This would require, however, the granting of a touristic licence.
But since the moratorium on touristic licences has been in place over the last several years, the only licences granted are for the construction of high-end hotels.
Forgive me but (for the avoidance of doubt):
- I've recently rented a private villa for my family over Easter (our first visit to Fuerteventura) and I'm assuming that there's no risk to us (from the apparent 'crackdown on illegal letting'). However, from reading this thread, I'm lead to believe that the owner could possibly incur a fine should they not hold the requisite 'touristic licence'.
- If we enjoy our visit and think that we may want to invest in a holiday home on the island, then it's unlikely that a 'touristic licence' will be granted as a private villa isn't a 5* hotel.
Please let me know (preferably before the 4th April) if I've got it wrong.
Thanks in advance.
Hi Sezalot, there should be no risk to you other than the possibility of not being covered by the owners Public Liability Insurance.
There is a chance that licenses will be issued in the future. If 15,000 signatures are obtained on the petition which is being organised at the moment, the Government will have to look into the matter and hopefully change the law.
Hope you have a great holiday. There are some great bargain properties at the moment.[:)]
Thanks Fifi
An update on the villa situation....
It is rumoured that there may be changes in May. This is still unconfirmed. If the Moratorium is lifted, the only villas that will be able to be registered will be those that are built on land classified by the relevant local Ayuntamiento as touristic.
The land classification, will be determined by the local authority, not the Cabildo, nor the Government. This means that even if the moratorium is lifted, villas on land which is not classed as Touristic could not register.
This is one reason legislative change is needed to enable villas to register as touristic. At some level, the Ayuntamientos need to be prepared, or made to, change the plot designations, and it remains to be seen through negotiations how best that legislative change can be achieved.
Hi guys
I have been speaking to the solicitors today and they have informed me that because i rent an apartment on one of the Oasis complexes even though it still is licenced to have touists etc i cannot let an apartment to anyone who may enquire about holiday lets. This I find hard to believe even though we were sold the apartment with a contract that guaranteed 48 weeks a year holiday rental.
Apparentely once our apartments and that includes lots of peoples were handed back to their indivdual owners the licence became invalid from the Oasis group, anyone who now lets their apartments is breaking the law.
Now as I am sure you are aware most people who bought these apartments from Oasis with guaranteed rental contracts were looking to let these as holiday homes, because thats what they were advertised as.
Now before some of you guys may, hopefully not, say thats just the way it is, I would like to point out that it does seem very harsh that even though the complexes have these licences everybody else is stuffed so to speak. I wonder how this would play out in a court. As it wasn't the people who bought these apartments fault they are just doing what the Oasis group should have done for them if you see what I mean.
I fully appreciate that the Canary Islands licence is there for a reason, but these are tourist resorts and apartments and as I am led to believe if you are on one of these holiday resorts you dont stand a chance of getting a licence as the complex already has one. Talk about unreasonable YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT UP.
By the way thanks Fifi for saying hello, Do you guys all live in Fuerty as we are out in June and it would be nice to meet up for a beer if there are any places still left open Ha Ha
Kind regards
Steve
They should take a leaf out of Portugals book. I spoke to a relative who owns out there and he said that you can apply for a licence immediately if you don't have one, only drawback being that it could take up to 2 years to obtain. However the authorities are a little more realistic out there and you can start renting immediately the licence has been applied for whatever the outcome. Apparently they keep bringing out silly laws and when they realise how obstructive they are tend to rescind them. A few years ago he received a letter from his lawyer saying it was now compulsory to have a legal representative in portugal and it would cost i think he said about 200 euros annually. He's been paying it for the past 4 years. Now recently he has been sent a letter from same lawyer saying that due to EU regulations this tax is illegal and therefore unenforceable. Drawback now he has to claim back the money from the tax authorities which is proving extremely difficult. Don't know what the moral of the story is but make of it what you will.
I'm fed up of talking about it now. I just hope the canarians find some common sense from somewhere, but i'll not be holding my breath.
Form to join the Illegal letting lobbying association here.... http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/form-to-join-alotca.html
I will post the link to the online petition as soon as I see it.[:)]
Island Connections article.... http://www.islandconnections.eu/1000003/1000009/0/36028/tenerife-article.html
Oh dear....the former Prime Minister Zapatero is finding it difficult to find a house to rent for his family holiday.[:0][:)]http://canarias24horas.com/lanzarote/zapatero-busca-casa-para-pasar-el-mes-de-agosto-en-lanzarote.html
If I had his email address I would tell him why that is.[:D][:D][:D]
Inspired post Fi......after he stays there I wonder if we can trace the particular villa and talk to the Spanish press about his clandestine holiday activities?[:D]
Wouldnt that be fun?[:)] I do love researching.[;)][:D][:D][:D]
He could be moonlighting as a Tourist Inspector.[;)][:D]
I can see the headlines now:
"Ex Spanish Prime Minister aiding and abetting illegal lettings!"
Oooh yes.....[:D]
I wonder will he choose wisely?[:D][:D][:D]
Not much chance of that I fear.....[:D]
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd223/kevinhelly/zapatero.jpg)
love it;)
Phew!!! just read my way through a lot of theis post... lots of info here, Last month the authorities visited all the estate and rental agencies in Corralejo and told them they could not handle holiday rents -seems it is only Hotels, Travel agencies and tour operators who are l;icenced to sell holiday lets.
They really do seem to shoot themselves in the foot these incompetent authorities.
I have heard that there is a consortium of Teneriffe property owners led by two lawyers who are taking the Canarian Goevernment to court in Madrid sometime this month - does anybody have an update on that??
Hi Austin, yes the two Lawyers have been successful with some of their appeals and managed to get some fines reduced to €15,000 from the original €18,000.http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/update-on-illegal-letting-asociacion-alotca-following-committee-meeting-yesterday.html
Santiago and Jose Escobedo are the Lawyers involved. Jose Escobedo is offering to submit the first appeal for clients for €880.http://www.escobedo.net/index.php/Escobedo_abogados/articles/holiday_rentals_in_the_canary_isles_questions_answers
Some of the cases have been dropped because of a backlog of cases.There has been an organisation called ALOTCA set up. Everyone who is affected by this has been asked to join. Details of how to join are here.. http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/form-to-join-alotca.html ALOTCA have organised press releases , none of which have been used by the Canarian Press. The organisation are not really surprised by this.
The Lawyers are keeping their tactics private at the moment according to Janet Anscombes blog, and I have not seen a link for the online petition yet. People who add their names to the petition will need to have registered on the Empadronamiento and include their NIE numbers. 15,000 signatures are needed and if they get this amount the Government have no option but to look at changing the law.
Update....Harassment of holidaymakers in private accommodation.http://www.janetanscombe.com/news/form-to-join-alotca.html
Andy Sargent says:
18 April 2012 at 7:20 pm
I have been the owner of an apartment in an aparthotel complex for 10 years were the registered letting agent is the majority share holder of the site. My understanding the mix is 55/45% hotel/private owned. We have been advised that of the 1st May 2012 anyone using a private apartment who is not the actual owner will be evicted from the site, by force if necessary.
I am not a serious letter but do expect family and close friends to be able to use 'my' apartment at my discretion. Whether I am reimbursed for this is totally irrelevant to this situation. I do have my own view and solution to this in the short term but are very interested to be kept up to date with the current situation and part of any campaign to try and change the law to be more flexible for owners particularly of single apartments. I do not and never have advertised for open market business in any form of media.
Janet says:
18 April 2012 at 7:31 pm
This is absolutely illegal. Get a lawyer. An owner may use his or her own apartment in any way s/he pleases. "Personal enjoyment" does not require the physical presence of the owner. Demand to see the law they claim they're quoting, and I repeat: get a lawyer.
D McGill says:
19 April 2012 at 11:36 am
Andy we are in the same boat in our complex and have been told that any other guests that are not the owner will result in police being called, my daughters fiances parents are due out and some close friends and i am appaled at the situation
Another example of harassment....
John says:
26 April 2012 at 4:30 pm
Janet – below is a copy of the document being handed out to people on Panoram Apartments who are renting through private owners – very threatening !
I would have thought some of these alleged "illegalities" would not apply to EU citizens and the letter itself is therefore illegal?
"7/1995 CANARY ISLANDS TOURISM REGULATIONS ACT
Principle of unity of exploitation
Article 38.- Principle of unity of exploitation.
2. For the purposes of this Act, unity of exploitation is considered the submitting of the tourist accommodation activity to a sole company in each establishment...
Article 40.- Requirements and conditions of the unity of exploitation.
The unity of exploitation for tourist accommodation requires:
a) The allocating of a sufficient number of people to the exploitation.
b) Facilities for reception purposes that are sufficient and are permanently available to assist guests.
c) A copy of this Act and of the regulations in force at all times regarding tourist accommodation, tourism and municipal operating permit and complaint forms be kept available to guests at this reception.
CANARY ISLANDS GOVERNMENT DECREE 149/1986
GUEST REGISTER, COMPLAINT FORMS, INVOICES, PRICES AND
THE ADVERTISING THEREOF AND OF THE ESTABLISHMENT
Article 21.- Register of guests.- Guests must be previously registered and show the appropriate documents proving their identity in order to be able to use the rooms.
1/1992 PROTECTION OF CITIZENS ACT
Article 11. Foreigners in Spain are compelled to provide the necessary documentation proving their identity and that they are in Spain legally under the provisions of current regulations.
Article 12.
1. Individuals or companies undertaking activities related to citizens' security, such as those regarding accommodation,... must complete the written, informative registration established by current law.
The only company legally authorised for operations in the HOTEL PANORAMA is Turística Konrad Hidalgo, S.L. (HOVIMA). If you have purchased your stay through other unauthorised individuals or companies, you are in illegal accommodation and are helping commit fraud in breach of police laws. Your stay in Spain may therefore be considered illegal and you could be punished."
...............
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x469/fifisforumphotos/ban.gif)(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x469/fifisforumphotos/shark.gif)(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x469/fifisforumphotos/ban.gif)
If you like to take your holidays in a Residential apartment with all the comforts of home.... you now have to buy one.[:(]
No consolation I know, but the same rules are being applied on the mainland as well, certainly in the Costa Del Sol/Andalusia areas that I know of, although many more there seem to have been designated `Touristic` from the start.
Really? I didnt know that they had started to enforce it there.
so the bottom line is if you buy a gaff you can not let it out for gain? you can however visit it and so can family and non paying guests?
fi please dont make me read the thread, i woz never any good at school;)
Emm sort of Appy.[;)][:)]....but in Tenerife your friends and family might be evicted.[:)] I hope they dont start doing that in Fuerte.[:0]
50% plus one of the owners on a Touristic complex have to be registered with a sole agent if they want to do holiday lettings.
Hi Fifi, thanks for the update. Good to hear that the lawyers are starting to get results, as soon as the online petition is avaialable let me know I will certainly sign it, however it is a bit much asking for NIEs, is this so the governmenbt can trace you back and check if yo are an illegal holiday maker or renter.
The regulations are overly complex, extrememly limiting, unworkable and very detructive to the tourist industry - in other words typically Spanish, however, I am sure that with a bit of promotion here, on Facebook and other publications and word of mouth we should easily achieve the 15,000 signatures necessary. So find the link - ASAP
Hi Austin7. I will email Janet Anscombe now and see if there is any further news on the Petition and will post any news here for you.
NIEs need to be given on all official Spanish Petitions. The petitions get counted and checked by Lawyers and anyone who has not entered their details are discounted. Aparently in Tenerife there is quite a bit of support from the owners of Bars and Restauraunts and also Taxi men who realise that ultimately their business could be affected by all of this, so I dont think there is any reason for anyone to worry about putting theirs on the Petition.
Great idea about Facebook etc
I will tell Janet that we will try and help gather the numbers.[:)]
Janets reply Austin7....
Hello Fiona, and thank you so much for contacting me. Yes, people anywhere can join the asociación, even those beyond Spain, let alone the Canaries. Fuerteventura residents or visitors will be more than welcome. The petition will eventually be online, and the lawyers are ensuring it will be in compliance with Spanish regulations for such legal petitions.
It is not at all necessary to be a member of ALOTCA first to sign the petition, though the reason we're not launching the petition right now is that we're trying to assess support for it by seeing how membership figures go. As soon as we get to the sort of number that makes a petition credible, we'll launch it, so the more members, the sooner the petition will go online.
I can imagine the interest in Fuerteventura - I have recently been made aware of the interest in Lanzarote as well. This is something that affects us all, and the Canaries and Canarians too if only they knew it.
Thank you once again - please do send on the link wherever you think it will be helpful.
With very best wishes,
Janet
How many people on this Forum are willing to put their NIE number on a petition to try and change the current law about letting their properties out? The petition will not be online until such a time as close to the necessary numbers (15,000) are reached. With that number of names the Government have no choice but to look into, but not necessarily change the current law.
There is no point in giving out about the law.....unless you are willing to participate in changing it.
Power to the people.[:)]
Let Fuerteventura have a voice in the outcome.[:)]
If you don't vote i can see tumble weed blowing around complexes in the very near future. Still that's probably just what they want
every one living or owning worthless property's.i don't think they under stand how this serious this whole situation is when all is needed is to let people have a licence and pay there tax's then they could control the letting business.
True Potash. I have been following this story for a long time. In Tenerife no one paid any attention to the Law until they received an €18,000 fine.They had an attitude of "It wont happen to us so we wont worry about it". They are willing to add their signatures to a petition now because it has cost them all a fortune in fines and have a good team of Lawyers behind their campaign.
Inspections are happening in Fuerteventura.Fines are currently being processed. There is no point in waiting until a fine is received and your friends and family are being threatened with eviction by the Police like is currently happening in Tenerife. We are being offered a way to voice our opinion on the matter. Who knows....it may change the Law in our favour if we do.[:)]
I really hope people do support the campaign because it affects everyone on all the Islands.
If theres a law existing in Spain which actually states that you cannot have non paying friends or relatives staying in your private home and will be liable to forced eviction if they are, i'd very much like to see it. If it does exist then what better time for the useless EU to investigate THEM and pass a few directives on property owning citizens human rights, prevention of free enterprise if renting and general harassment. But they are too busy regulating the size and shape of bananas and a myriad of other nonsensical rules.
This is the Law that is being used now inorder to intimidate guests in Tenerife....
"7/1995 CANARY ISLANDS TOURISM REGULATIONS ACT
Principle of unity of exploitation
Article 38.- Principle of unity of exploitation.
2. For the purposes of this Act, unity of exploitation is considered the submitting of the tourist accommodation activity to a sole company in each establishment...
Article 40.- Requirements and conditions of the unity of exploitation.
The unity of exploitation for tourist accommodation requires:
a) The allocating of a sufficient number of people to the exploitation.
b) Facilities for reception purposes that are sufficient and are permanently available to assist guests.
c) A copy of this Act and of the regulations in force at all times regarding tourist accommodation, tourism and municipal operating permit and complaint forms be kept available to guests at this reception.
CANARY ISLANDS GOVERNMENT DECREE 149/1986
GUEST REGISTER, COMPLAINT FORMS, INVOICES, PRICES AND
THE ADVERTISING THEREOF AND OF THE ESTABLISHMENT
Article 21.- Register of guests.- Guests must be previously registered and show the appropriate documents proving their identity in order to be able to use the rooms.
1/1992 PROTECTION OF CITIZENS ACT
Article 11. Foreigners in Spain are compelled to provide the necessary documentation proving their identity and that they are in Spain legally under the provisions of current regulations.
Article 12.
1. Individuals or companies undertaking activities related to citizens' security, such as those regarding accommodation,... must complete the written, informative registration established by current law.
Sorry to be a bit dim, but would be grateful if someone could clarify. If we bought an apartment on a holiday complex we are ok to let that, right? It's just if we wanted to let our own home there would be problems? Also am I right that long term rentals are not affected?
Hi Finchlark. You would need to find out the status of your apartment and not just the Complex. Some complexes are still operating with Touristic status and yet the apartments which have been sold privately have lost their Touristic status.It is illegal to offer holiday lets if you own one of them. If the apartment still has Touristic status you are only allowed let it out through the sole agent for the complex.. Long term lets of three months or more are allowed. There are no Licenses being given for villas any more because of the Moratorium and so long term lets only are allowed unless the property already has a licence and is registered.
Thanks, Fifi. This is a bit of a minefield!
fi has a longterm let got to go through the sole agent?
I think you just have to be registered as a Landlord and have a contract if you are longterm letting Appy but others may know for sure.
so in that case give everyone a 3 month let even if they only stay a week;) simples;)
[:D][:D][:D] Good idea.
bloody ell i think appy ammers cracked it
Legally the place would be theirs for the three months though so they could decided to let all their friends and family come over to use it for the remainder of the contract. The next tenant could arrive and find the place is being used.[:D]
The official public notice about the extension of the moritorium of Tourist licenses has been published. http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/093/001.html
The current ban expires this month. Instead of the usual three year rolling extension, this time the ban has only been extended until December to give themselves time to decide how best to proceed at that point.
quote:
Originally posted by fifi
The official public notice about the extension of the moritorium of Tourist licenses has been published. http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/093/001.html
The current ban expires this month. Instead of the usual three year rolling extension, this time the ban has only been extended until December to give themselves time to decide how best to proceed at that point.
Ha ha...I knew it! They bring everyone into the net..for a significant licence fee....thereafter....you're on their tax radar.
Inevitable.
Time will tell....[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by fifi
Time will tell....[:)]
Time always does.[:)]
Yes it does, doesnt it? [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by fifi
Yes it does, doesnt it? [:D]
Yes it does doesn't it.
[:D]
[:D]
[:X][:X][:X][:X]
[:X][:X][:X][:X][:D]
Si[:)]
Fi,
I have an idea that might just work, the law seems to be focused on people renting their apartments, well if you define rent i.e letting somebody use your property for a fee, then what if we DON'T charge a rent, let us give it to the different users 'Rent Free', thye just have to pay for the cleaning fees etc.... that just so happen to be equal to what you currently receive for rent !.
One for the legal boffins maybe ????
Look forward to your comments, [8D]
Can the Man - I think you've cracked it BRILLIANT idea - no rental charges, free accommodation - cleaning charges only. Love it.