What do you need to show in order to take advantage of the discounted fares on the ferry, is the padron sufficient?
I travelled with Armas recently and got the 75% reduction. I had to show photo ID(ie Passport), Green Foreigner's certificate (often referred to as Residencia), and an up to date Empadron. This was when I purchased my ticket at the harbour just prior to sailing.
We happen to have planned to go and get our Residencia and Empadron this morning 😀😀😎😎
Have been a couple of times with Lineas Romero as foot passengers. They sail 5 or 6 times a day and are the cheapest. All they need is a passport or residencia (which the crew also check as you board). With the discount it's 6.75 eu return - fantastic value!
Quote from: Windermeregolfer on September 11, 2017, 07:53:18 AM
We happen to have planned to go and get our Residencia and Empadron this morning 😀😀😎😎
Just being nosey John 😂😂😂
Is that you moving out there full time ??
Quote from: spitfire58 on September 11, 2017, 10:53:26 AM
Quote from: Windermeregolfer on September 11, 2017, 07:53:18 AM
We happen to have planned to go and get our Residencia and Empadron this morning 😀😀😎😎
Just being nosey John 😂😂😂
Is that you moving out there full time ??
No not moving out fulltime, we will be spending up to 26 weeks a year here so it allows you to get the discounts on inter island flights and ferries and you need it to buy a car, plus I am told you them get reduced or no non residence tax or bank charges plus it helps the local council claim more money from central government. Been and done the paper work and the certificates will be ready in a few days ☺☺☺
Surely then you have to pay Spanish Tax and declare all your worldwide assets?? I thought you can only be tax resident in one - UK or Spain - not both?
Anyone like to clarify?
WG if you have found a loophole to avoid paying non-resident property tax, then I'm interested ;) I have 2 to pay!
I did read the other day, might have been on Spanish Insight, that there are 2 forms of 'Residencia' one for people who live in Spain between 3 and 6 months and one for full time residents.
The 'Full' one would make you a Spanish Tax resident.
On the car front, I am going over to Gran Canaria next week and have been in contact with the dealer and sent copies of my NIE, first few pages of our Escritura (House Deed) which gives our names and the address of our property and Passport.
They tell me that is fine so you don't NEED a Padron. This is where someone will tell us they DID need one.
As we all know, it seems to depend who you see and when you see them. :D
Quote from: Windermeregolfer on September 11, 2017, 12:38:25 PM
Quote from: spitfire58 on September 11, 2017, 10:53:26 AM
Quote from: Windermeregolfer on September 11, 2017, 07:53:18 AM
We happen to have planned to go and get our Residencia and Empadron this morning 😀😀😎😎
Just being nosey John 😂😂😂
Is that you moving out there full time ??
No not moving out fulltime, we will be spending up to 26 weeks a year here so it allows you to get the discounts on inter island flights and ferries and you need it to buy a car, plus I am told you them get reduced or no non residence tax or bank charges plus it helps the local council claim more money from central government. Been and done the paper work and the certificates will be ready in a few days ☺☺☺
Wow, good for you. That's what I would do in a few years but the wife won't have any of it. I started off at 6 months & she bargained it down to 4 😩
I am hopefully meeting a few of the guys on here at the cafe beside Carmen Villazan on next Monday at 11 am if you are free for a coffee
Deso
As I have said before, We bought ours from About Cars, and he said I had to have one, we worked an arrangement where he leased me the car for about 6 weeks, and then when we completed the purchase he adjusted the price to compensate, but if you have ben told different, go with it.
Fingers crossed, I'm going to look a bit of a div running up the ramp of the Ferry pretending to hold a steering wheel and making a brmm brmm noise. :D
Quote from: Deso on September 11, 2017, 18:21:09 PM
Fingers crossed, I'm going to look a bit of a div running up the ramp of the Ferry pretending to hold a steering wheel and making a brmm brmm noise. :D
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
You just put a hilarious picture in my head Deso. Hope it all works out
Deso, are you living full time on the island now ?
Quote from: Deso on September 11, 2017, 17:16:48 PM
I did read the other day, might have been on Spanish Insight, that there are 2 forms of 'Residencia' one for people who live in Spain between 3 and 6 months and one for full time residents.
The 'Full' one would make you a Spanish Tax resident.
On the car front, I am going over to Gran Canaria next week and have been in contact with the dealer and sent copies of my NIE, first few pages of our Escritura (House Deed) which gives our names and the address of our property and Passport.
They tell me that is fine so you don't NEED a Padron. This is where someone will tell us they DID need one.
As we all know, it seems to depend who you see and when you see them. :D
Deso Archer Et al
It was our next door neighbour who told us about the Empadron / Residencia Green card for car purchases as they are buying a new car from the Nissan Garage up by Ideal, we had already decided to get one for the ferry / inter Island flight fares.
Re the Non Resident Property Tax and Bank Charges it was a couple we had dinner with last night who mentioned that.
Due to a bereavement in the family we are having to go to the lawyers in the morning to change our wills so whilst there will ask about the non resident property tax and bank charges and up date you after that.
Will try to make the coffee morning next Monday.
Quote from: Can the Man on September 11, 2017, 21:14:43 PM
Deso, are you living full time on the island now ?
Not yet Can, hopefully April...ish :D 8)
You don't need to be resident to buy a car.
We just had our new car registered with Empadron and NIE (out of date!).
No problems. Hope that helps you.
OK this is what I learned from our lawyer yesterday morning re Empdrons.
You need one if it is going to be your main residence and you then get the tax benefit on that property only, so Archer your second property would still be subject to the non resident tax and this also apply to locals.
So for us this is ok as we are going to spend 26 weeks a year here and not letting it out at all. When we are in the UK we are visiting for business or on holiday.
The lawyer confirmed you don't need an Empadron to by a car but some garages don't understand this. I mentioned this to our neighbour last night and he told me that he got a lower tax rate on the new car he had purchased by having the Empadron. His is a brand new car so not sure if the same applies to secondhand cars.
The lawyer also mentioned that if you have savings / investments of over â,¬50,000 outside Spain you have to declare them but you do not pay any tax on them.
We will not have any income in Spain it will all be UK (Pensions and Investment Income) so my understanding is that for Tax purposes we will be registered in the UK and pay Income Tax there and have to demonstrate we have done that to the bank here in Fuerteventura.
The main issue to consider is the is one of social security and health care as you can't use both systems.
Now that is my simple understanding and interpretation of what I have been told if anyone has another interpretation I am happy to be corrected.
Quote from: Windermeregolfer on September 13, 2017, 08:43:40 AM
OK this is what I learned from our lawyer yesterday morning re Empdrons.
You need one if it is going to be your main residence and you then get the tax benefit on that property only, so Archer your second property would still be subject to the non resident tax and this also apply to locals.
So for us this is ok as we are going to spend 26 weeks a year here and not letting it out at all. When we are in the UK we are visiting for business or on holiday.
The lawyer confirmed you don't need an Empadron to by a car but some garages don't understand this. I mentioned this to our neighbour last night and he told me that he got a lower tax rate on the new car he had purchased by having the Empadron. His is a brand new car so not sure if the same applies to secondhand cars.
The lawyer also mentioned that if you have savings / investments of over â,¬50,000 outside Spain you have to declare them but you do not pay any tax on them.
We will not have any income in Spain it will all be UK (Pensions and Investment Income) so my understanding is that for Tax purposes we will be registered in the UK and pay Income Tax there and have to demonstrate we have done that to the bank here in Fuerteventura.
The main issue to consider is the is one of social security and health care as you can't use both systems.
Now that is my simple understanding and interpretation of what I have been told if anyone has another interpretation I am happy to be corrected.
Hi John, thanks for the info. Interesting to know. Does that mean if you have the empadron you do not pay non residents tax ? If so, I assume there is a residents/residence tax instead ? Any ideas on this. Hope to see you Monday, will be good to put proper names/faces to forum handles, lol
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Hi John, thanks for the info. Interesting to know. Does that mean if you have the empadron you do not pay non residents tax ? If so, I assume there is a residents/residence tax instead ? Any ideas on this. Hope to see you Monday, will be good to put proper names/faces to forum handles, lol
[/quote]
You have to pay non residents tax unless you are a resident. The empradon is you registering with the local authority (so they get grants etc from central government).
The empradon does allow you to gain discount (30%) on the buses (once you apply for a card). It also allows you to get certificates for certain things. Personally when I bought a car from a main dealer they required the fiscal certificate from the local authority. You can also get discounts for the zoo and other local places of interest. One of the certificates is for travel which I have used for discounts on ferries but this depends on the day who is dealing with you, some people accept it some don`t. Even the Spanish seem confused about it so not much chance for the rest of us. Treat an empradon cerificate like a lottery sometimes you win, if you do its a bonus!
Thanks WG. But did you get your Residency, as I think you were indicating that you could have this w/o the tax burdens?
Confusion arises around all this legal stuff for one main reason. People start talking about two different types of Residency interchangeably and that is wrong.
There is only ONE type of Spanish Residency. It is the type where one pays taxes on ones global income to the Spanish government. In addition all global assets over â,¬50k must be disclosed to the Spanish government on a regular basis and if the sum exceeds the wealth tax threshold then that tax is also payable. If you do this then you are a Spanish resident. If you don't do this then you are not.
If you spend more than 183 days in Spain in any calendar year then by law you are supposed to become a Spanish resident but the same is true in the UK so quite how one manages a situation where one spends greater than 183 days in Spain one year and then greater than 183 days in the UK the next year and so on is totally unclear. One can't be changing residency every year to pay tax to the different governments but technically that is what you are supposed to do.
The other type of Residency that people talk about is not Residency AT ALL. Throughout the EU there is a directive that if anyone intends to spend more than 90 consecutive days in a particular country then they need to register this fact. Very unfortunately this registration and the resulting documentation is often referred to as Residencia but it is NOT until one also spends more than 183 days in Spain in a calendar year and starts to pay taxes as above. The reason that it has become known as Residencia is that it is often thought of as a natural precursor to Residency but in reality many register but do not go on to become Spanish Residents.
So there is a grey area. Namely those people who wish to spend greater than 90 consecutive days in Spain so need to go on the register but who do not wish to pay taxes in Spain so do not wish to spend more than 183 days in any year there. Lots of people fall into this category.
The only people who should be enjoying discounted travel are those who contribute via the tax system (i.e. proper Residents) but examples are rife of people who are only on the register (but are not Residents at all) also having the necessary documents to enjoy such discounts. I suspect the reason for this is because there is an implicit assumption by the authorities that if one registers because one intends to spend more than 90 consecutive days in the country then they also assume one will also become a full Resident by spending more than 183 days there and paying Spanish taxes, but many do not.
When one does the 90 day registration one needs to prove financial means and healthcare provision.
Finally the Empadron is the electoral register at the town hall. It is neither the 90 day registration nor the full Residency. It is a local thing and is encouraged by each Ayuntamiento because they get European funding based on this headcount.
This is my understanding of all this. If anyone can add to or correct any of the above then please do so.
Ernie
Thanks Ernie. Exactly how i see it. You cannot have your cake AND eat it!
For the Pajara empadron they ask if you wish to take it for fiscal purposes or just for the need to have the Empdron (car purchase, etc). You tick a box on the form. Tuineje didn't ask.
So here are my first points of uncertainty ....
1) As I understand it, applying to go on the central government & EU register (90 day rule) and applying to go on the local authority Empadron (electoral roll) are two different things ? Can anyone confirm this ?
2) Assuming that they are two different things then which of the two affords discounted travel ? In my post above I have assumed it to be the central register but maybe it is the Empadron that affords these benefits ?
3) Can one go on the central register without going on the Empadron ?
4) Can one go on the Empadron without going on the central register ?
Any answers gratefully received. I appreciate that no two answers will be identical. It is Spain after all :)
Ernie
Hi Ernie
1. Yes they are totally different.
2. The Empadron affords the discounted travel. When you first go on the Padron you get an Empadron certificate. If you wish to avail of the discounted travel you ask for the 'travel empadron' as well. Keep a note of the date and validity of this 'travel empadron' - they have a limited life and need renewing from time to time.
However, when I travelled recently with Armas I had to show my Certificado de Registro (small green paper/card issued by Policia Nacional) as well to prove I was a resident.
3. No, Policia Nacional require a copy of your main Empadron as part of the Registro process.
4. Yes, the Empadron comes first and is needed for most other things.
The best reference for all this that I can find is Janet Anscombes site (just read FV for Tenerife!):
https://www.janetanscombe.com/forms-formalities (https://www.janetanscombe.com/forms-formalities)
Wealth Tax:
The 50,000â,¬ is not quite as straightforward as it might seem. If you are resident here and have assets elsewhere you need to report them if any category exceeds the 50,000â,¬.
So, if you live here and have a property in the UK that needs reporting in 1 category.
Then if you have stocks and shares that total 50K you report them in another category.
You add together all your bank accounts, savings accounts, ISAs etc and they go in another category if over the 50K.
Can't remember where Unit Trusts come, S & S or Savings.
Another category is Life Insurance where you are the beneficiary of a policy/policies that could pay out 50K or more.
There may be other categories that I'm not aware of.
If you hold these assets jointly you declare them but then note the proportion, ie 50% interest.
So, you make your declaration and then keep an eye on the values. If any category varies by 20% or more (up or down) you need to resubmit your declaration the next time the annual declaration falls due. This includes selling or buying property outside of Spain if your total assets in this category move by 20%.
From what I remember you need to be a millionaire to reach the overall total that would invoke the Wealth Tax but you still need to make the declaration. Problem is that at any time the authorities could change the level at which the tax is invoked. The authorities can fine anyone who has not made a Wealth Tax declaration who should have, and they (the authorities) say that ignorance is not an excuse.
Hi Tamara,
Many thanks for the reply. It is the precise sequence of things that has always eluded my research so I am grateful for your answers.
So, contrary to my original post claiming (without any actual direct knowledge or proof) that it is the Registro that affords travel discounts, it is clear from your post that actually it is the Empadron (and more specifically the additional "travel Empadron") which offers these benefits, and that the Empadron must come first before any application for Registro. This is very clear and useful information.
Can you please detail the necessary information that must be provided when applying for both Empadron and the additional "travel Empadron" ? Am I right in thinking that no proof of Residency, Registro, financial means or healthcare provision is required for Empadron (and "travel Empadron) and that it is only at Registro stage where proof of financial means and healthcare provision is necessary ?
If that is true then it seems possible to go on the Empadron (and the "travel Empadron") so as to receive the travel benefits but not go on the Registro thus not needing to provide any proof of finances or healthcare. Is there any flaw in that argument ?
I always thought that the travel benefits were linked to the Registro and that the costs required to be able to prove healthcare cover (via private healthcare insurance in my case) would massively outweigh the benefits of cheaper travel. But according to your reply this might not actually be true at all. Is there really a loophole whereby going on the Empadron (and "travel Empadron") offers benefits but with no costs ?
Thanks for any further info.
Ernie
Ernie. Standard Empadron is easy. Just go to your Ayuntamiento, sit for 2hrs in the line ;), with proof of id (passport, for me), and proof of accommodation; I took the Escritora copy, or rental agreement.
You have to go back in a werk to collect and pay about 1.50e.
In Pajara, they sent someone around to our apartment to check we lived there. In Tuineje nothing more.
They asked about registration to vote. I said no. Easy.
To me the registro thing is new. I don't need it, so that's ok.
Hi Archer,
I always gathered there was very little involved in getting the Empadron as you have just detailed. It is for this reason I always assumed the travel discounts must be linked to something more (Registro or even full Residency) but seemingly not.
Were your actions sufficient for you to get the necessary discount travel documents ?
Ernie
Quote from: Ernie on September 14, 2017, 10:02:34 AM
Hi Archer,
I always gathered there was very little involved in getting the Empadron as you have just detailed. It is for this reason I always assumed the travel discounts must be linked to something more (Registro or even full Residency) but seemingly not.
Were your actions sufficient for you to get the necessary discount travel documents ?
Ernie
Ernie,
You're not going to get the correct answers from the people here, lol. Firstly, ignore janetsomething website as it contains loads of incorrect stuff.
There is no loophole. there is no way of conning the system IN THE LONGTERM. Agencia Tributaria get them all eventually.
Even though separate procedures, everything is linked. Signing on the padron WILL make you fiscal resident unless you do a BAJA to get yourself off it, before the 183 days in any year. It would be used as evidence by Agencia Tributaria as evidence that you were living here. They mostly win their fights.
Ministerio de FOMENTO accredits the travel dicsount. This is a ministry that exists at National level (same level as Agencia Tributaria, Social Security, etc.). So you are getting the discount because you are fiscal resident! Catch me if you can works for a while for many people.
In recent times, MAdrid has ordered all townhalls to verify their residents are legit. Our local townhall is doing it by recinding the travel padron and forcing people to go there and prove that they are living here, which in turn proves to Agencia Tributaria that you should also be paying worldwide taxes in Spain!! This is ongoing. I was ordered to go there and will be required to go back there in 5 years again. If I hadn't gone, I would have been removed from the padron after a period of 2 years. So, the place is getting cleaned up.
Lots of Brits/Irish that have lived here for years like to think that they are a fountain of knowledge and that they know how to work the system, etc. They are deluded. My partner (funcionario) is constantly dealing with foreigners who complain that they have been asked to pay back 4 years of wrongful payments for various reasons, all because they tried to be clever.
When fighting Agencia Tributaria, they hold all the cards. The individual will always have to prove that they don't live here. Been on the padron would be one of the elements used to prove that you are living here.
P.S. talk about padron and public funding is really just a smokescreen to get to the real situation. Reel em in and then send a tax bill, lol.
Quote from: calculator on September 14, 2017, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: Ernie on September 14, 2017, 10:02:34 AM
Hi Archer,
I always gathered there was very little involved in getting the Empadron as you have just detailed. It is for this reason I always assumed the travel discounts must be linked to something more (Registro or even full Residency) but seemingly not.
Were your actions sufficient for you to get the necessary discount travel documents ?
Ernie
Ernie,
You're not going to get the correct answers from the people here, lol. Firstly, ignore janetsomething website as it contains loads of incorrect stuff.
There is no loophole. there is no way of conning the system IN THE LONGTERM. Agencia Tributaria get them all eventually.
Even though separate procedures, everything is linked. Signing on the padron WILL make you fiscal resident unless you do a BAJA to get yourself off it, before the 183 days in any year. It would be used as evidence by Agencia Tributaria as evidence that you were living here. They mostly win their fights.
Ministerio de FOMENTO accredits the travel dicsount. This is a ministry that exists at National level (same level as Agencia Tributaria, Social Security, etc.). So you are getting the discount because you are fiscal resident! Catch me if you can works for a while for many people.
In recent times, MAdrid has ordered all townhalls to verify their residents are legit. Our local townhall is doing it by recinding the travel padron and forcing people to go there and prove that they are living here, which in turn proves to Agencia Tributaria that you should also be paying worldwide taxes in Spain!! This is ongoing. I was ordered to go there and will be required to go back there in 5 years again. If I hadn't gone, I would have been removed from the padron after a period of 2 years. So, the place is getting cleaned up.
Lots of Brits/Irish that have lived here for years like to think that they are a fountain of knowledge and that they know how to work the system, etc. They are deluded. My partner (funcionario) is constantly dealing with foreigners who complain that they have been asked to pay back 4 years of wrongful payments for various reasons, all because they tried to be clever.
When fighting Agencia Tributaria, they hold all the cards. The individual will always have to prove that they don't live here. Been on the padron would be one of the elements used to prove that you are living here.
P.S. talk about padron and public funding is really just a smokescreen to get to the real situation. Reel em in and then send a tax bill, lol.
So all in all. Is there any point in getting the Empadron if you are non resident. I have been told that we should get it for local elections & council funding even though we will only be there for 6 to 8 wks a year for the next number of years & even after that only for 16 to 18 wks wintering there from when we retire ??
Where are you flying from Ron?
Easy enough to prove you are not living here permanently if you are legitimate.
Provide annual P60 from UK.
Provide record of community tax from UK local authority.
Bank statements.
Proof registered with Doctor dentist are UK address.
(For last 5 years)
You can get a certificate of UK residence from the HMRC office which normally deals with your tax affairs. If you deal with more than one tax office, you need to go to the one to which you send your tax returns.
You also can get forms to claim exemption or relief from other countries' taxes from HMRC Residency at PO Box 46, Fitz Roy House, Nottingham NG2 1BD (telephone 0845 070 0040 (+ 44 0151 210 2222 if calling from outside the UK))
Being on the padron is similiar to the electoral roll. You can be on UK electoral roll but not necessary entitled to vote. Just like as a non resident on the padron you are not entitled to vote on national elections.
Quote from: Deso on September 14, 2017, 13:48:16 PM
Where are you flying from Ron?
Edinburgh. Sunday 13.50
Can't wait 😎😎😎
You'll be around an hour ahead of us, 15.05 from Liverpool. ;D
Quote from: Deso on September 14, 2017, 17:45:16 PM
You'll be around an hour ahead of us, 15.05 from Liverpool. ;D
Knowing my luck, I will probably still be in a queue at the car hire desk !! Hope you have a good flight
😁😁😁
Ernie,
I didn't bother with the travel discount, as I am not full-time resident. I have had the Empadron for years. I pay my non-resident taxes and do everything legally.
Janet Anscombe, like Tamara says, is an excellent source of accurate info.
My original question has opened a real can of worms so I will take it a stage further, has anybody, actually, personaly, obtained discounted air travel from mainland Spain? What documents did you have to show for that? What discount did you obtain?
It is indeed a big can of worms and has been so for at least the three years I have been trying to decipher it all. I am not much wiser now than I was back then.
Unsurprisingly I know of multiple people who are full time Residents here who enjoy cheap travel, and I am sure several more exist on this thread.
I also know of one couple who own an apartment in Corralejo and spend two separate sixty day periods there each year but other than that who do not visit at all. They also use the cheap ferries to Lanzarote and Gran Canaria but it is unclear to me whether they are on the Empadron, on the Registro or both. However I am certain that they are UK Residents for tax, healthcare reasons etc ...
I also own an apartment in the north of the island and spend a total of three months each year there. I have not applied for anything as I don't think I'm entitled to anything but I may well be shooting myself in the foot.
I would also be interested to hear of other people's experiences of these issues.
Ernie
My experience is bought my residents discount ticket by showing my Travel document which was up to date and my green residents card, arrived at the port to again have to show travel doc,green card plus my passport for I.D.
At the airport bought flight tickets on line and was refused the tickets on collection at the airport because I had forgot my documents so had to pay the full price.
This tells me that if you don't have the correct docs you will not get the discount empradomiento is not enough on its own.
That seems to confirm it. Both Tamara and Mooro say that you must have the (residentia) green card as well as a Padron. I usualy spend 3 months here in the spring and another month in Autumn so I may enquire about getting a green card.