Fuerteventura Forum

General Chit Chat & Queries - no commercial links => Queries n Questions - Please keep this section succinct. => Topic started by: Sir Real on July 23, 2016, 19:06:40 PM

Title: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 23, 2016, 19:06:40 PM
Does anyone do this?  Is it legal?  Do ingredients and equipment have to come from UK or mainland Europe?
I want to leave the English weather behind, but not the beer!  If anyone has a steer on this, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Windermeregolfer on July 23, 2016, 19:42:10 PM
Hi Sir Real - not sure of English style beer at Fuerte temperatures unless it is a light / blonde brew.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 23, 2016, 19:52:16 PM
Hi Windermeregolfer - thanks for your reply.  Temperature control isn't too challenging - I have cold beer despite the 30°+ temperatures we've had in London recently.  Homebrewers tend to be quite inventive, and adapt fridges and freezers to act as beer cellars, or source ex-pub equipment to use at home.

I should add that I don't consider the style of beer to be dictated by climate.  If it's stored and served properly (at the right temp, as above), then it's a matter of preference.  Light lagers originated in Scandinavia, and IPA was sent to India, after all.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on July 23, 2016, 20:09:35 PM
Quote from: Sir Real on July 23, 2016, 19:06:40 PM
Does anyone do this?  Is it legal?  Do ingredients and equipment have to come from UK or mainland Europe?
I want to leave the English weather behind, but not the beer!  If anyone has a steer on this, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Chris

Why would you want to???
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 23, 2016, 20:20:40 PM
Quote from: Johnrgby2 on July 23, 2016, 20:09:35 PM
Why would you want to???
JohnR - is that why would I want to brew?  I don't like Eurofizz, and there's little else around in the Canary islands I've visited.  Please advise if I'm wrong
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: el caballo hambriento on July 23, 2016, 22:15:56 PM
Sir Real Do you live in Fven?
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: warriors on July 23, 2016, 23:33:16 PM
hi Sir Real
i know some people on the Island manage to brew real ale and sometimes struggle with the temperature and the "finnings" to clear the beer at the end (i think) but if you have the gear and the will crack on and have a go!!
have had to get used the fizzy stuff ourselves so go for it-good luck
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: TamaraEnLaPlaya on July 24, 2016, 00:57:18 AM
I've seen a shop on the island selling home brewing stuff but I can't for the life of me remember where it was - I'll keep my eyes open and ask around or perhaps someone else will come up with the location. Likely to be Corralejo or Puerto.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on July 24, 2016, 10:00:15 AM
Quote from: Sir Real on July 23, 2016, 20:20:40 PM
Quote from: Johnrgby2 on July 23, 2016, 20:09:35 PM
Why would you want to???
JohnR - is that why would I want to brew?  I don't like Eurofizz, and there's little else around in the Canary islands I've visited.  Please advise if I'm wrong

There are a number of Bars in Caleta that sell draught British beer, and I seem to remember the Sea Horse {Sports Bar } in Cotillo does as well
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 24, 2016, 13:16:25 PM
Thanks for all the replies  :)

El Caballo - no, I don't live in Fven.  Where is that?

Warriors - I can imagine that fermentation temperatures and clearing could be challenging.  I manage at ambient temps in the UK, but would want a fermentation cupboard - usually a modified fridge - in FV.  When I buy a place, it will have to have space for brewing!

Tamara - that would be really useful info - thank you.

John R - thanks.  Good to know there's alternatives to Eurofizz when I want to go out for food and/ or a drink  :)
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Books Cards & Things Corralejo on July 24, 2016, 15:19:27 PM
I have a friend near Corralejo who brews his own beer and very good it is too. He imports the beer kit from a company in Barcelona.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Will196 on July 24, 2016, 15:36:54 PM
Quote from: Sir Real on July 24, 2016, 13:16:25 PM

Warriors - I can imagine that fermentation temperatures and clearing could be challenging.  I manage at ambient temps in the UK, but would want a fermentation cupboard - usually a modified fridge - in FV.  When I buy a place, it will have to have space for brewing!


You only need about 20C for ales. All winter you might find the cool spot in the house too cool.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 24, 2016, 15:54:12 PM
Quote from: Will196 on July 24, 2016, 15:36:54 PM
You only need about 20C for ales. All winter you might find the cool spot in the house too cool.
Thanks Will.  I like to ferment at 22°.  A fermenting cupboard (adapted fridge or similar) has heating as well as cooling to maintain a steady temp, so that's the plan
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Will196 on July 24, 2016, 15:58:00 PM
Make a bigger batch. It'll heat itself  ;D
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: woe10 on July 24, 2016, 16:31:26 PM
Can't see you having any legal problems here, but I don't recall seeing any shops selling ingredients.

Turicomplex used to have their own Brewery in Caleta,  situated in the garages below Fado Rock Steak House.
A Russian bloke used to be the Brewer, it was like Donkey Pee   :o
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: KWC on July 25, 2016, 10:10:54 AM
Quote from: woe10 on July 24, 2016, 16:31:26 PM
Can't see you having any legal problems here, but I don't recall seeing any shops selling ingredients.

Turicomplex used to have their own Brewery in Caleta,  situated in the garages below Fado Rock Steak House.
A Russian bloke used to be the Brewer, it was like Donkey Pee   :o

LOL I suppose the question that must be asked Woe is:       How do you know what Donkeys Pee tastes like  ;D
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 25, 2016, 12:45:34 PM
Quote from: KWC on July 25, 2016, 10:10:54 AM
LOL I suppose the question that must be asked Woe is:       How do you know what Donkeys Pee tastes like  ;D
We can only speculate!

Thanks for all the replies.  What I've gathered so far is:

It's probably legal (but check the details).

Ingredients will have to come from the UK (or RoI to keep it in the Eurozone).  I'm unlikely to find out about local availability until I'm living in FV.

Good temperature control needed

If you think I've missed anything, please post it!
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: silent_running on July 25, 2016, 12:51:56 PM
Water?

I think you may need to play around to find the right water for the brew...salt/mineral content especially.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 25, 2016, 16:35:04 PM
Good point SR - I'm aware that I'll have to use bottled water.  Isn't the tap water brackish, de-salinated stuff?  Ugh!  I'll need to find cheap, readily available bottled water that has a clear mineral content analysis, and then adjust the mineral content to suit the beer
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Blueboy7 on July 25, 2016, 21:11:20 PM
Having read all of the advice Chris I honestly think it would be better for you to stay in the UK and invest in a sun lamp.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Windermeregolfer on July 26, 2016, 05:26:21 AM
Quote from: Blueboy7 on July 25, 2016, 21:11:20 PM
Having read all of the advice Chris I honestly think it would be better for you to stay in the UK and invest in a sun lamp.

No it would be better to acquire a liking for some very good Spanish wine on sale on FV at very reasonable prices and may be the odd larger, in the warmer climate  ;)
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on July 26, 2016, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Windermeregolfer on July 26, 2016, 05:26:21 AM
Quote from: Blueboy7 on July 25, 2016, 21:11:20 PM
Having read all of the advice Chris I honestly think it would be better for you to stay in the UK and invest in a sun lamp.

No it would be better to acquire a liking for some very good Spanish wine on sale on FV at very reasonable prices and may be the odd larger, in the warmer climate  ;)

That is the most sensible suggestion on this subject so far :D
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 26, 2016, 16:11:43 PM
Thanks (?) for the replies.  Sun lamp's no good as soon as you go outside.

Good Spanish wine?  I have an ulcer-type condition, and can't drink wine

Lager in the warmer climate?  Certainly, on occasion, but as a necessity, not a preference. 

I brew Golden Ale - a light, refreshing beer for warmer conditions, served like beer should be - through a hand pump.  Am I going to switch to lager?  Unlikely!

I think homebrewing in FV will be slightly more tricky than in the UK, but any problems can be overcome.  So thanks again for all the 'don't bother' advice, but I'm afraid it's wasted  :)
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Snowdrop on July 26, 2016, 17:55:28 PM
When you move over to fuerte it will be a good hobby/interest for you.  Good luck to you 😄
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Blueboy7 on July 26, 2016, 19:04:14 PM
Try searching the net with the following "Home Brewing in a Hot Climate", loads of info available.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 27, 2016, 16:47:29 PM
Cheers Snowdrop - that's certainly a consideration.  It's a hobby/interest now, so I don't want to discard it when I come to FV

Thanks Blueboy.  Yep, loads of info, particularly on Aussie sites, although my post was more about local availability, rather than climatic concerns.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Archer on July 27, 2016, 18:13:53 PM
I've seen draught Guiness on sale here, and a programme on tv a couple of weeks ago suggested it was brewed in Gran Canaria. So they have no problem with water etc.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Blueboy7 on July 27, 2016, 19:52:30 PM
There is a problem with water, I have went through three boilers in 9 years.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: TamaraEnLaPlaya on July 28, 2016, 00:48:05 AM
Quote from: archer101 on July 27, 2016, 18:13:53 PM
I've seen draught Guiness on sale here, and a programme on tv a couple of weeks ago suggested it was brewed in Gran Canaria. So they have no problem with water etc.

I think GC has a certain amount of ground/spring water they could use for brewing Guiness so are not reliant on desalinated like we are in FV.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: suendrob on July 28, 2016, 10:54:27 AM
Quote from: Sir Real on July 25, 2016, 16:35:04 PM
Good point SR - I'm aware that I'll have to use bottled water.  Isn't the tap water brackish, de-salinated stuff?  Ugh!  I'll need to find cheap, readily available bottled water that has a clear mineral content analysis, and then adjust the mineral content to suit the beer

There's a natural water source at the roadside from the airport to El Cotillo somewhere around Tindaya, I think. We drive past it each trip. People fill their bottles there. Spring water, obviously drinkable, as it comes from a tap. I'm sure someone could tell you more.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: suendrob on July 28, 2016, 14:36:10 PM
Quote from: KWC on July 25, 2016, 10:10:54 AM
Quote from: woe10 on July 24, 2016, 16:31:26 PM
Can't see you having any legal problems here, but I don't recall seeing any shops selling ingredients.

Turicomplex used to have their own Brewery in Caleta,  situated in the garages below Fado Rock Steak House.
A Russian bloke used to be the Brewer, it was like Donkey Pee   :o

LOL I suppose the question that must be asked Woe is:       How do you know what Donkeys Pee tastes like  ;D

That's what comes from re-enacting Jackass
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 28, 2016, 21:15:15 PM
Thanks for all the replies about water sources.  I'd assumed it was bottled water or nothing.  Good to know there may be alternatives  :).  Water quality is very important - it is the start point after all.  If that goes in wrong, the beer comes out wrong.

Blueboy - talk of fermentation temps and boilers leads me think you're a brewer.  Are my assumptions about sourcing ingredients from back home right?  Are there any local options?

Erik, I'm sure you're not interested in water chemistry, but just wanted to share your opinion of English beer with us.  No prob, m8.  I know it's the best in the world - you're welcome to your own opinions  :)
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: SheilaW on July 28, 2016, 21:54:59 PM
There's Old Specled Hen on draught and bottled in Corralejo. We also have a bar tgat specialises in beers from around the world. La Palma make some artisan style beers available here in bottles. And we have a couple of bars that specialise in Belgian and Dutch beers. There was an artisan beer on sale in El Cotillo a while back too.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: TamaraEnLaPlaya on July 29, 2016, 00:35:20 AM
Quote from: Johnrgby2 on July 28, 2016, 12:07:01 PM
There is also a natural spring at Los Molinos, the only one on The Island I am told, I have occasionally seen people up stream fom the bridge filling water bottles, but how pure it is is anyone's guess

Don't touch it! (Well, don't drink it anyway!) It mainly trickles down from the abandoned reservoir further inland - abandoned because the water, intended to help agriculture in the area, absorbed too much salt from the surrounding land. I hate to think what the presumably stagnant water contains now!
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 29, 2016, 18:53:05 PM
Thanks for the replies.

Sheila - I'll look-out for UK beers when I'm out and about

Tamara - cheers for the heads-up.  I'll give that spring a wide berth!
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: MLA on July 30, 2016, 08:43:49 AM
We have collected water from here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@28.5649022,-13.9634445,3a,60y,18.19h,91.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0Wv-RdQvQYKN44w_yexhnQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

Also talked to some elderly locals who were also filling containers, they said that they had always used this water for drinking. We had a mouthful, tasted slightly salty. I would agree with Tamara, that it would be high in minerals. 
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Will196 on July 30, 2016, 09:01:59 AM
Quote from: Sir Real on July 28, 2016, 21:15:15 PM
Thanks for all the replies about water sources.  I'd assumed it was bottled water or nothing.  Good to know there may be alternatives  :).  Water quality is very important - it is the start point

  The other option is to adapt to your water and materials. The reason traditional beers differed in different areas was because the brewers made do with what they had.

High mineral content waters lend themselves to different beers then very soft water. Even more o if you're mashing and not using kits.

Outside of the Germans  that stick to the purity law I doubt any large brewery doesn't adjust it's water today. You've got the same factory made number two coming out of breweries around the world. They aren't using the same water source.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on July 30, 2016, 13:46:03 PM
Thanks MLA.  Thinking about spring water sources, there's a problem.  With tap and bottled water, mineral content analyses is available.  Not the case with spring water.

As Will rightly says, mineral content can be adjusted.  (Yes Will, plan is to mash).  I certainly do at present - I can access Thames Water's analysis online.  Spring water I'd have to get analysed.  Not impossible, but an added complication and expense.

I think the simplest (and cheapest!) option is to stick to a brand of bottled water, with a known mineral content.  Then, as now, whenever I brew, I'll have foreknowledge of the mineral adjustments needed.

Will, do you brew in FV, or UK?
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on July 30, 2016, 13:54:48 PM
There is at least one company on the Island that fits filters to the mains supply to make it drinkable by removing the minerals etc, they claim it is purer and tastes better than bottled, and a neighbour who has one fitted swears it tastes better, but I must admit I cannot tell the difference. I think he pays about â,¬20 per month for the filters
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Will196 on July 30, 2016, 15:50:44 PM
Quote from: Sir Real on July 30, 2016, 13:46:03 PM


I think the simplest (and cheapest!) option is to stick to a brand of bottled water, with a known mineral content.  Then, as now, whenever I brew, I'll have foreknowledge of the mineral adjustments needed.

Will, do you brew in FV, or UK?

I used to. Too many things at the moment that make committing the time impossible.

I'm lucky to like dark beers. Enough black patent and you can hide almost any fault  ;D
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: SheilaW on August 01, 2016, 20:43:11 PM
I haven't managed to find an analysis of the tap water anywhere over here. Information is rarer than gold and such things are always a closely guarded secret.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Will196 on August 02, 2016, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: SheilaW on August 01, 2016, 20:43:11 PM
Information is rarer than gold and such things are always a closely guarded secret.

Why? It's not like they can stop you going to a lab. Plus every bottled water has the needed info listed. We aren't talking the plans for the next war.

Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on August 02, 2016, 10:27:06 AM
Quote from: Will196 on August 02, 2016, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: SheilaW on August 01, 2016, 20:43:11 PM
Information is rarer than gold and such things are always a closely guarded secret.

Why? It's not like they can stop you going to a lab. Plus every bottled water has the needed info listed. We aren't talking the plans for the next war.

Absolutely correct Will, every packaged bottle of water is required by EU law to have the content analysis printed on the label, now whether that info is correct is another matter again, I recall back in 20032004 The Coca Cola company launched their first bottled water in the UK, i do not recall what brand name it had, it was on the market for less than a week, when the Environmental Health Office had it analysed, and it was found to be tap water from a factory they had in Peckham.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on August 02, 2016, 10:33:49 AM
I have just googled it it was called Dasani, and though they denied it for a week or so blaming a hoax website for spreading malicious rumour,s, it was recalled and never  reappeared, it had parasite worms in it and although they had filtered a lot of the minerals out and added others  these worms they could not remove, and thats how the Food and Drug Authority traced the source.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Blueboy7 on August 02, 2016, 10:37:31 AM
That's right Johnrugby, the supervisor of the bottled water plant was called Del Boy and his brother worked for him, he was called Roders.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on August 02, 2016, 10:40:59 AM
Quote from: Blueboy7 on August 02, 2016, 10:37:31 AM
That's right Johnrugby, the supervisor of the bottled water plant was called Del Boy and his brother worked for him, he was called Roders.

Laugh if you must Bluey, but that is an absolutely true story except i may be out by a year it could have been 2003, I kept an unopened bottle in my office for years just to p*ss of coke reps.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: SheilaW on August 02, 2016, 13:01:58 PM
Quote from: Will196 on August 02, 2016, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: SheilaW on August 01, 2016, 20:43:11 PM
Information is rarer than gold and such things are always a closely guarded secret.

Why? It's not like they can stop you going to a lab. Plus every bottled water has the needed info listed. We aren't talking the plans for the next war.
It's just the Canarian way and CAAF, the water supplier, is the most secretive of the lot. They don't even give you a bill, they just refer you to the slip of paper the bank has with the total payment. I told them that was illegal but the bloke just shrugged. What can you do?
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on August 02, 2016, 13:07:26 PM
Quote from: SheilaW on August 02, 2016, 13:01:58 PM
Quote from: Will196 on August 02, 2016, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: SheilaW on August 01, 2016, 20:43:11 PM
Information is rarer than gold and such things are always a closely guarded secret.

Why? It's not like they can stop you going to a lab. Plus every bottled water has the needed info listed. We aren't talking the plans for the next war.
It's just the Canarian way and CAAF, the water supplier, is the most secretive of the lot. They don't even give you a bill, they just refer you to the slip of paper the bank has with the total payment. I told them that was illegal but the bloke just shrugged. What can you do?

We use Aguas Antigua, and we do get a bill showing how the amount is arrived at, and a chart of consumption over the last 67 months, but no info on water quality, and it normally arrives about 15 days after the payment  has left the bank
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on August 02, 2016, 14:32:25 PM
Thanks for the input.  From these recent posts, it sounds like bottled water will be the best bet for brewing (and everything else!).

Erik, if nothing else put me off using tap water, the chlorine content would.  As John says, bottled water has its analysis on the label.  UK water companies aren't much better at providing info - analysis is accessible online, but is too often incomplete and out of date.

My assumption about using bottled water is that it won't be a huge expense.  Roughly what does it cost in FV for 5 litres?

Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on August 02, 2016, 14:43:22 PM
The upside of this for me is I pulled my bills out and looked at them, something I never do as the payment has gone and as long as it is the same amount that is fine, on closer examination, iI discover there are two separate rates, resident and non resident, and we are paying non resident, so we will be looking at a refund with any luck.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: suendrob on August 02, 2016, 16:38:10 PM
When we were in to keeping tropical fish, it was always recommended to stand the water for a day before adding it to the tank.
Chlorine is a gas, dissolved in the water and it supposedly evaporates out, and particularly so, when aerated.
Would that work?
Won't affect the minerals, though.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: dandare on August 02, 2016, 16:43:52 PM
Sir Real
8 litres of bottled water in Mercadona costs 95 centimos.
Ie peanuts !
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on August 02, 2016, 21:00:18 PM
Good job you checked, John!  Is water metered?  I assume it's more expensive than the UK - reflects the costs of de-salination.

Sueandrob - there's various ways to neutralise chlorine, but taken along with all the other factors, bottled water wins it.

Thanks Dandare.  That'll make it the 2nd most expensive ingredient in a brew!
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Johnrgby2 on August 02, 2016, 22:14:46 PM
No the water charges are way less than the UK,  circa â,¬300 per year its simply the standing charge for non residents is around â,¬8 per month more than for residents.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on August 03, 2016, 16:43:37 PM
Cheers John - that's pretty much the same as it costs me in London.  Glad it doesn't cost more, 'cos brewing still uses a lot of tap water for cooling the wort (unfermented beer) after boiling.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: erik_tonny on August 03, 2016, 17:57:55 PM
Sir Real, you should visit Holland if you can.
The last couple of years there has been an explosion of small breweries and a lot of their products, both lager and ale, are really good.
There is also a great choice of beers brewed with the ladies in mind.
Many of the finer restaurants offer an extensive beer list next to their wine list.
Once I saw a list of 1500 different beers !
I myself am very pleased that there are more breweries now that sell their lager unflitered.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: SheilaW on August 04, 2016, 15:53:24 PM
Quote from: erik_tonny on August 03, 2016, 17:57:55 PM
There is also a great choice of beers brewed with the ladies in mind.
What on earth is the difference? Not that it matters as I'm no "lady", just a woman who loves beer.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: erik_tonny on August 04, 2016, 16:54:18 PM
Well Sheila, for a beginner there are what we call the rosé beers. Actually a belgian Witbier (Wheatbeer or in your lingo a Bière Blanche) flavoured with red fruit.
My lady likes a Ducheness de Bourgogne (Verhaeghe). (see ratebeer.com)
A belgian ale with a very fruity aroma.
The very fine bubbles give a champagne like sensation to the mouth.
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: erik_tonny on August 04, 2016, 17:57:23 PM
An other ladies favourite  is belgian kriek beer / lambic (cherry wheat).
Title: Re: Homebrewing in FV
Post by: Sir Real on August 04, 2016, 20:40:57 PM
Hi Erik - yep, there's a lot of new micro-breweries springing-up all over the UK, so lambic, witbier, tripels etc are more readily available.

Shiela, I'll save a bottle for you  :).  None of the above exotica, mind - Bitter or Golden Ale

I've visited Holland Erik - went to Amsterdam when I was young enough to appreciate it  :o.