Thought a dedicated thread to the subject may provoke a better response.
Is anyone on the island in the process of being prosecuted for renting with no licence or for not having the correct paperwork?
Has anyone actually paid any money or been threatened financially or in any other way by the authorities as regards to renting?
If there is anybody in this situation kindly give us the benefit of any information on the process being taken without compromising yourself any further..
Thanks
That's a good question stedge. There are people, but they seem to be keeping it to themselves :'(
thats what i'm finding so strange. In resorts and complexes where generally everyone knows everyone elses business within nano seconds of it happening, theres not one person knows anything or is willing to impart any knowledge they may have regarding themselves or someone else on the subject.
Yep mighty odd.
Just a thought, these people may be too embarrassed they were taken in by promises from agents. :'(
could be but i doubt it. That would only apply to those directly hit by it anyway. Wheres all the gossips who know what happened to the guy next door, the lady down the street or even the bloke on another complex?. Jesus i know when the guy over the road changes his toilet roll. If someone got a rental fine it would be the talk of the place.
doesn't appear we are going to get anything on this.
perhaps they're all doing 6 months inside
I too would like to know if anyone has any real details of actual fines. We were there at Easter and most people on the Island aren't even aware that this is going on, the bar/restaurant owners we did mention it to could not believe that anything so stupid would happen, they said it would ruin most businesses who depend on this type of holidaymaker. However take a look at this link because it does look like the authorities are that stupid! It is all very worrying >:(
http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/spainnews/9992/spain-may-ban-private-owners-from-letting-their-properties-to-holidaymakers.aspx (http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/spainnews/9992/spain-may-ban-private-owners-from-letting-their-properties-to-holidaymakers.aspx)
I don't think there have been that many people fined on Fuerte yet, particularly not individual owners. But the inspectors have been over on Playa Blanca in Lanzarote, so I guess it's only a matter of time before they start coming over here.
just had a look on a few lanzarote forums. Question much the same as mine has been asked on them but as on here the ones i looked at,again nobody coming forward who has actually been collared.
How do they go about checking? Are they just bangin on doors and hassling people on holiday?
Quote from: sean on April 21, 2013, 18:08:58 PM
How do they go about checking? Are they just bangin on doors and hassling people on holiday?
Exactly that - with a print out of the web-site advertising your apartment in their hands!!
However, just heard of a German Magistrate with an apartment in Majorca who has stated that it's his apartment & he will rent it to whoever he likes - & that any attempt to stop him is a breach of his Human Rights, & he will fight it in the European Courts!!!
Hope he wins ... ... ... :D
Quote from: NorthernLights53 on April 21, 2013, 19:06:27 PM
Quote from: sean on April 21, 2013, 18:08:58 PM
How do they go about checking? Are they just bangin on doors and hassling people on holiday?
Exactly that - with a print out of the web-site advertising your apartment in their hands!!
However, just heard of a German Magistrate with an apartment in Majorca who has stated that it's his apartment & he will rent it to whoever he likes - & that any attempt to stop him is a breach of his Human Rights, & he will fight it in the European Courts!!!
Hope he wins ... ... ... :D
Well I'm out in June in a rented apartment via owners direct, so if I get the inspector bangin on the door does he fine me or the owner?
Quote from: sean on April 21, 2013, 19:26:29 PM
Quote from: NorthernLights53 on April 21, 2013, 19:06:27 PM
Quote from: sean on April 21, 2013, 18:08:58 PM
How do they go about checking? Are they just bangin on doors and hassling people on holiday?
Exactly that - with a print out of the web-site advertising your apartment in their hands!!
However, just heard of a German Magistrate with an apartment in Majorca who has stated that it's his apartment & he will rent it to whoever he likes - & that any attempt to stop him is a breach of his Human Rights, & he will fight it in the European Courts!!!
Hope he wins ... ... ... :D
Well I'm out in June in a rented apartment via owners direct, so if I get the inspector bangin on the door does he fine me or the owner?
The owner - you haven't done anything wrong.
However, the owner, by bringing in tourists & therefore tourist money into local bars, shops etc. (which is virtually all that FV has to sustain it's economy) is breaking the law.
And you thought that our politicians were certifiable!!
Quote from: NorthernLights53 on April 21, 2013, 19:33:45 PM
Quote from: sean on April 21, 2013, 19:26:29 PM
Quote from: NorthernLights53 on April 21, 2013, 19:06:27 PM
Quote from: sean on April 21, 2013, 18:08:58 PM
How do they go about checking? Are they just bangin on doors and hassling people on holiday?
That's ok then :D
Exactly that - with a print out of the web-site advertising your apartment in their hands!!
However, just heard of a German Magistrate with an apartment in Majorca who has stated that it's his apartment & he will rent it to whoever he likes - & that any attempt to stop him is a breach of his Human Rights, & he will fight it in the European Courts!!!
Hope he wins ... ... ... :D
Well I'm out in June in a rented apartment via owners direct, so if I get the inspector bangin on the door does he fine me or the owner?
The owner - you haven't done anything wrong.
However, the owner, by bringing in tourists & therefore tourist money into local bars, shops etc. (which is virtually all that FV has to sustain it's economy) is breaking the law.
And you thought that our politicians were certifiable!!
Why should anyone be aware if they have a fine when they can do what Fi Fi has already posted? I new nothing about this method of how you can be fined without having any physical contact or postal notification? or have I got that wrong? is it for a certain type of business set-up rather than an individual. If it can apply to the individual they surely all they have to do is fine everyone advertising on the web (not hard to check against their licence records), post it on the gobcan site, wait until the 21 days is up, then put the fine on your property, once the interest has built up on the fine, say after a year, send them a reminder (or heart attack). Or they can just wait until you try and sell your property, another shock.
The one thing I have learned about the Spanish, contrary to what loads of Brits believe, is they are far from stupid. If the Brits who have Spanish residency gave the Spanish Tax Office a breakdown of their UK asset's, then getting the money (Their Fine) wont be to much of a problem, they have just signed a treaty with the Brit government for sharing information.
Hi Northernlights, the fines which have not been personally received by owners are shown on the Gobiernos website . Here is an example of 6 properties which were fined in Caleta. http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/202/014.html (http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/202/014.html)
Cannot go into details as to where or who but I can confirm the inspectors have visited fuerteventura and I know of 1 property they visited and ´persuaded´the guests to sign a statement about being holidaymakers renting for a week. The inspectors visited because very kindly the other owners (who are not resident on the complex but only visit for holidays or only allow friends and family to use the villas) reported the guy to the inspectors ( not just once but numerous times) as quote´we dont want tourists near us´ Not sure what these people consider a tourist but surely as they are non resident and only visit on occasions, are they not tourists as well?
Have not heard if the owner was fined or not and he probably does not know either unless he checks the boletins etc.
I know for a fact the owner was declaring all taxes etc and also his property managers were legal and declared their earnings.
Hi tourists....welcome to fuerteventura..........just dont rent anywhere near us.....stay in your hotel and then ?$%& off.
I would have thought the big supermarket chains would have something to say about all this nonsense.A big chunk of their business must come from self caterers renting private villas and apartments especially in the more rural locations.
Love to see that little scenario... Supermarkets, car hire firms and cab drivers V the big money grabbing hotel chains. Clash of the titans.
Problem is Stedge that at the moment business owners in Fuerteventura don't seem to be aware that this is happening. All those I spoke too thought I meant not paying taxes, when I explained the crackdown was about renting to tourists they generally just shook their heads and said that won't happen here we all depend on this trade too much! I think the Banks should be worrying about this too, if they really were to stop people like us renting then there would be a lot of house keys going back to Banks, the last thing they need at the moment. >:(
Question ???
Why would Ryanair or any other company want to fliy to any part of Spain or the Islands if this law comes in ?
The AI people would be no help to Spain or the Islands.
The banks would want to put a big skip in reception area with the letters Please Q this way for RETURN KEYS ONLY !.
Cushions in the skip to stop the noise of the keys .
The amount of business that would go within weeks.
Simple ask owners to have a renting lience , be of a standard and pay the renting tax.
All happy then !
Lander i think you have a good point there. If i didn't have a look at this forum i would be none the wiser about any fines or rental problems myself. And as i've been informed by friends who live there it only seems to be the British who are getting in a lather over this. Other nationalites appear to know nothing about it, and if they do happen to know couldn't care less.
Most of the alleged 7,000 or so fines have been raised against properties in Tenerife. Only those denounced by others in Fuerte seem to have been fined. There has not been the big crackdown here - yet - so not many people are aware of what is going on. In Tenerife though it is a huge issue and owners are appealing the fines through the courts - which could take a long time. Until we know the outcome of these appeals it is difficult to paint an accurate picture. But, this is not a new law - this is the 1995 letting law, that has pretty much been ignored until the end of 2010, when they started the crackdown in Tenerife.
While Tenerife tourist numbers are holding up fairly well, Fuerte's tourist numbers are in freefall. Over the last 6 months or so, there has been an 11 percent drop in tourists compared to the same month in the previous year. This may or may not explain why the inspectors have not been so busy over here - do they want to make things even worse by fining property owners who are still bringing tourists in? We will have to wait and see.
Unfortunately this whole issue seems to have gone over the heads of local businesses who are likely to directly suffer from the drop in tourists staying in 'illegal' accommodation. The way the Canarian government present it - the owners of illegal tourist accommodation are siphoning money out of the local economy, not bringing it in - so it's a case of no questions asked.
I've always held Spanish civil authorities and police organisations in pretty low regard and i'm inclined to think there is a more sinister reason for the clampdown. If you wanted private renting to pay its way its so easy a 5 year old could work it out. Income from license provision with yearly renewals along with the standards inpection costs and other associated expenses would bring in mega euros. Plus jobs are created in the process to run it all. Something smells a bit fishy to me.
last time i noticed that smell was around coppers were caught on the take.
Quote from: stedge on April 22, 2013, 12:39:44 PM
I've always held Spanish civil authorities and police organisations in pretty low regard and i'm inclined to think there is a more sinister reason for the clampdown. If you wanted private renting to pay its way its so easy a 5 year old could work it out. Income from license provision with yearly renewals along with the standards inpection costs and other associated expenses would bring in mega euros. Plus jobs are created in the process to run it all. Something smells a bit fishy to me.
last time i noticed that smell was around coppers were caught on the take.
Stedge, that's called LOGIC. When you've lived here long enough, you'll find that the word doesn't exist :'(
I suppose if you are so opposed to the current situation you could always stand as a prospective Member of Parliament or form a lobby group to change the policy. I don't think writing bits on the forum will effect any changes to the situation. As already pointed out the indigenous population seem to have little or no concerns at present so pressure to make changes to the legislation are unlikely unless the general population can be convinced any change would not just benefit a few foreign property owners trying to make a buck to the detriment of existing legal holiday providers
I think more than a few........ in fact a very large number, contributing, and are still contributing a very large amount of money to the Spanish economy. Your right, little will be achieved posting and discussing the subject on the forum, as with 99% of other subjects posted on millions of forums across the net, it just makes us feel better and learn a little, in my case, to late.
When the Spaniards raid the countries banks which looks a foregone to me, the so called illegal renters might be proper glad they've got no money in their accounts. With no foreign property owners left trying to make a buck they will have to take a bigger slice out of the likes of spikes account instead.
I know that ALL the forum members will gather around and help me out when the time comes!
Anyway 15% of €0.00 = €0.00
I believe you spike.
But its not me you'll have to convince.
Just like I believed the Estate Agent, the Bank, the Developer and the Lawyer who told me (in writing) that I could rent out my property for short term holiday lets, look how that turned out! :'(
Quote from: lander on April 24, 2013, 08:41:18 AM
Just like I believed the Estate Agent, the Bank, the Developer and the Lawyer who told me (in writing) that I could rent out my property for short term holiday lets, look how that turned out! :'(
You forgot to mention the "Timeshare Touts" that said there was going to be a "Disney World" built in Caleta ;D ;D :o
Who fell for that one ???
Quote from: woe10 on April 24, 2013, 20:42:53 PM
You forgot to mention the "Timeshare Touts" that said there was going to be a "Disney World" built in Caleta ;D ;D :o
Who fell for that one ???
It will get built when they do the golf course in between Caleta and Nuevo. :D
Next to the new bus stop. ;D
They're only going to do that though once they've completed the new marina!
Hi, not been on here for a while. I have just been reading the posts about illegal rental fines and would like to know if it is possible to find out what properties are residential or tourist? I am looking at hiring a villa in Caleta next year on Caleta Golf or Las Salinas. I know that this is a long time away and the Law may be challenged/changed by then, but until I read the posts on here i would not have known anything regarding this situation. I fully understand that it's the property owner and not the person hiring the property that will be fined, but again why are the websites offering properties for rent (Ownersdirect, Holidaylettings, Villaplus etc) not mentioning this issue on their homepage?
QuoteI fully understand that it's the property owner and not the person hiring the property that will be fined, but again why are the websites offering properties for rent (Ownersdirect, Holidaylettings, Villaplus etc) not mentioning this issue on their homepage?
You've answered your own question really! Why should those websites have to advise holiday makers of an issue which does not directly affect them? It's is the OWNER of a property who is taking a risk in advertising on the sites and should be aware of the laws. The sites are generating revenue for themselves I assume, and a lack of advertising income would not be good for them, although I do question the moral issue.
when you have a mortgage to pay on a property mis-sold to you, morals tend to come second.
Holiday websites couldn't care less. Up until 18 months ago most of them weren't even aware of the problem.
I was not questioning the morals of the advertisers, of course I understand the dilemma they face with having cost of a mortgage to cover.........I was alluding to the rental websites and the fact they either ignore or are not aware that their advertisers could be faced with huge fines and are not being informative.. The least they could do is have a brief summary of the facts on the site thus giving potential advertisers the choice of whether to risk the ad!!
After all, most financial advisors these days are obliged to inform investors that there are risks attached to most investment plans!
I do fully understand that it is the property owner who gets fined, but is there away of finding out if a property that I want to rent (short term) is only supposed to be used for residential (long term) lettings or wether the property is allowed to be used for tourism?
Quote from: adewass on April 27, 2013, 10:03:53 AM
I do fully understand that it is the property owner who gets fined, but is there away of finding out if a property that I want to rent (short term) is only supposed to be used for residential (long term) lettings or wether the property is allowed to be used for tourism?
Basically, if it is advertised on the likes of Holiday Lettings, Owners Direct etc as a single property then you can be fairly certain that it is an 'illegal' let.
As far as I am aware, all the complexes and villas etc on the golf courses are classed as residential so can not be let out short term.
Thank you Deso, this does answer my question.
Quote from: emmi on April 27, 2013, 09:15:17 AM
I was not questioning the morals of the advertisers, of course I understand the dilemma they face with having cost of a mortgage to cover.........I was alluding to the rental websites and the fact they either ignore or are not aware that their advertisers could be faced with huge fines and are not being informative.. The least they could do is have a brief summary of the facts on the site thus giving potential advertisers the choice of whether to risk the ad!!
After all, most financial advisors these days are obliged to inform investors that there are risks attached to most investment plans!
Hi Emmi, all of the main Holiday Rental websites are fully aware of the Canarian Laws. There is usually something similar to this (copied and pasted from Holiday lettings) in their terms and conditions.
( However, although we may provide the photograph or video, we do not warrant that we have conducted any inspection of the property. Advertiser shall be responsible for ensuring that it has all necessary rights, licences and authorisations to rent property.)
Posted today in Irish news Papers
PRIVATE holiday rentals could be restricted across Spain under a law being debated in parliament seen as favouring the hotel industry.
Alarmed at the number of tourists now choosing to rent accommodation privately instead of through hotels and registered tour companies, Spain's parliament is poised to pass a law that will restrict the right of home owners to engage in holiday lettings.
The legislation has been called a "death blow" to a sector that contributes greatly to Spain's economy and provides many struggling families with a lifeline at a time of economic hardship.
The law means it will be illegal to rent out property through websites without the correct licence and approval by regional tourism authorities. Home owners will have to ensure their properties conform to regulations already imposed on hotels.
"The passing of this law could deal a death blow to a growing sector that contributes enormously to the economy," said David Tornos, president of Asotur, the tourist rental management association, in Madrid.
The move has been welcomed by hoteliers, who have long felt private renters pose unfair competition in the sector.
With more than 6.2 million people unemployed in Spain, many families survive by letting out one room of their house to tourists, or move in with relatives during high season to make extra money.
Article from El Pais newspaper on the subject of holiday letting of private property:
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/06/inenglish/1367842766_596787.html (http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/06/inenglish/1367842766_596787.html)
Article from Canarian weekly about the law as it currently stands in the Canaries.
WE are back to the topic of Tourism Law, and the fines imposed on some landlords letting out their properties illegally.
An interesting search by Canarian Weekly has uncovered lots of information about landlords who have been fined because they have not been registered with the Tourist Board of the Canarian Government.
Over the course of many years, clients have asked me whether they have to register to be deemed legal landlords and the answer is not that simple.
We have to be careful not to get confused between a civil law matter (which relates to long term or short term letting agreements) regulated by the Rental Agreements Law or Civil Code (approved by the national Parliament) and that of the administrative law (authorisation to operate a tourism activity which includes tourist rental agreements) which is regulated by an Autonomic Law (i.e one that is approved only by the Canarian Government).
The administrative law is the area that covers the area of tourist property rentals, it's a tourist activity and consequently you have to follow the rules stated by every Autonomic Community (in this case the Canary Island Autonomic Community). The fines are not issued because you are "renting your property" but because "you are carrying out a tourist activity without the proper authorisation".
The Letting Agreement Law is a Civil Law and the Tourism Law is an Administrative Law. This means the first one regulates the disputes between landlord and tenant, while the second one regulates the relationship between the citizen and the State (in this case Canary Autonomic Community).
In other words, the Autonomic Community cannot stop you renting the apartment (because it is your civil right) but instead, can fine you because you're in breach of the Administrative Law.
There should be a common pattern to all cases in which individuals receive a fine. It normally starts with an inspection, you can give your defence reasons against the allegations, later you will receive a proposal of a fine. Sometimes, before the proposal you can be required to present documents in a reasonable period of time to the authorities. And finally you receive the final resolution with a fine. This resolution can be objected to before the same authority that granted this fine ("reposition") or appealed before the Economic Court. The resolution of the Economic Court can be appealed at the Administrative Court (which belongs to the Judicial Power and is independent). Bear in mind that, once you are fined (final proposal) you must pay the fine, appeal and later, if you win the case, the monies are refunded.
I have studied some of the ongoing cases. In one of them a rental office was fined for two reasons: 1) not reporting tourist activity to the authority and 2) not attending the requirement (after the inspection the Tourist Board sent him he did not present further documents). Note that the fine imposed by not attending the requirement was higher than the first one. That is why it is very important to attend every requirement made by any authority. In relation to the communication (report) to the Tourist Board, the Tourism Law states that this is an obligation and the lack of report is a serious offence and the fine can be from 1,500 – 30,000 Euro.
In other cases, there were two different fines: (1) not reporting tourist activity to the authority and (2) not having the "complaints sheets" and the "inspection book". Any tourist related business must have such sheets and books which means that even if you are registered you can be punished for not having such book and sheets.
Taking into account that these cases are based on non-resident owners who stay in the island few months and rent the apartment the rest of the year (if they can find a tenant), the questions and answers are:
Q: Can I rent my apartment?
A: Yes. As owner you have the right to rent your apartment. It is necessary to determine if you are at the same time doing a tourist activity (which is the reason of the fines).
Q: Is it necessary to be registered at the Tourist Board?.
A: If the rental is considered tourist activity you must report to the Tourist Board such activity. In other words if you are included in article 2.b) of Tourism Law which is the case of companies that offer accommodations and the complexes where these activities are offered. According to the Tourism Law there should be only one company allowed to deal with tourist rental agreement in every complex.
Q: What happens in cases in which the landlord does not what to deal with a tourist activity but rent privately his/her property short term?.
A: These owners can deal with rental agreement according to the Letting Contract Law or Civil Code (in these cases, according to Tourism Law, the tenant changes his address).
Although this is my opinion, my advice in cases when you receive an inspection is to contact a lawyer who knows about Administrative Law, attend every requirement (if not you can be punished for not attending it) at least to say that you cannot provide the documents requested, present allegations to the proposal of sanction and finally appeal against the sanction. If you are a company that lets out apartments be sure to fulfil all the obligations stated in the Tourism Law.
I realise that many people are concerned about how these penalties affect tourism, especially if the fined ones are ordinary landlords who do not act as a tourist company. I am just focusing this matter according to the legal point of view and trying to clarify the confusion originated in the difference between a civil law matter and an administrative law matter. I would be glad to hear from you if you have any comment or query.
Mariano Zunino Siri is a lawyer registered in Tenerife Bar Association since 1991. Office in Los Cristianos at Edificio Valdes Center Torre "A", oficina 1, piso 2º. Phone: 922 79 44 12.
Very interesting and informative. Not certain if there was a specific reason why he should highlight non-resident cases over residents cases? I wonder how many cases are pending? and, if most of them are for letting agencies rather than private individuals?
Only 7000 cases as far as I can remember Blueboy. I think most of the Rental agencies were inspected first and the rest are apartment/villa owners. I dont know why they mentioned non residents either.
I had a quick look at the Boletins today and noticed a Caleta fine....http://translate.google.ie/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gobcan.es%2Fboc%2F2013%2F088%2F015.html&act=url (http://translate.google.ie/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gobcan.es%2Fboc%2F2013%2F088%2F015.html&act=url)
There may be more. I very seldom look at them these days.
If anyone knows the man mentioned please let him know because there is only 15 days to appeal and it would probably save him a few thousand euros.
Looks like the inspectors were mooching around up the hill then. Caleta Alta are the ones behind Artenara and near to Senorio del Castillo where someone has a fine registered for 6 properties. :o
Yes. It appears to have been visited on 27th April 2012 Deso. I dont know if the other persons name is an Inspectors (as is sometimes the case) or the name of an individual denouncing him.
One of the well known rental agencies on the Island has also been fined.http://translate.google.ie/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gobcan.es%2Fboc%2F2013%2F066%2F029.html&act=url (http://translate.google.ie/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gobcan.es%2Fboc%2F2013%2F066%2F029.html&act=url)
Hi Fifi, thanks for the info, now we have it in black & white that the fines are happening. I'm sure most people know Room To Breathe, they've been around for a long time and they operate as a company so must be paying their taxes etc., they also employ quite a few people, this is really bad news :-[
Interesting that the tourist rental company, renting 50 different properties is fined 13,500 euros - less than the 18,000 euro fines levied against individual owners. Hardly proportionate is it and shows how totally ridiculous these 18,000 euro fines are for owners - let's hope the lawyers in Tenerife are successful in getting them reduced to 1,500 euros on appeal.
I also hope that Room to Breathe are going to appeal, using the recent ruling on the EU Bolkestein Directive which states that 'prior authorisation' is not required to set up such a holiday rental business as an SL. Two such cases against companies in Tenerife have been quashed on appeal due to this, and it seems to be the main claim against Room to Breathe in this case.
If the Canarian Government are using this act to get people into hotels and not private accomodation its not going to work, as there are people who only stay in hotels and there are people who only stay in villas/apartments.
So stopping visitors staying in private accomodation wont make them stay in hotels, they will look at other destinations. :( :(
It wont improve the economy.
They don't care if there are less tourists, as this places less of a strain on the island infrastructure. They think they can attract tourists of a 'higher quality' who will spend more money on the island than those in self-catering accommodation.
Most people who stay in a villa eat out most nights except for the odd BBQ and a family will spend up to a 1000 euros in the week.
In a hotel all inc or half board they will spend a few 100 Euros. Not Brain surgeon stuff for the local Politions to know who the best tourists are is it....
Ah, but they have done their 'research' which apparently shows that people staying in 5 star hotels, spend more locally than people staying in a villa or an apartment. Quite how this can be when many people staying in a 5 star hotel never actually venture outside at all is beyond me. Also, there is not an infinite supply of these high rolling 5 star types to go round, so best not to base your entire tourism strategy round them, eh? But remember this is all being driven from Tenerife, which is why it is so irrelevant and potentially damaging over here.
I have been thinking about the statement which was made by the Tenerife Lawyer in the article from Canarian Weekly which I have posted above.
We have all been informed that letting our property out for a period of three months or more is acceptable , BUT my query now would be......if, as the article states, the tenant must prove a change of address and then does not bother registering with an Empadronamiento would the rental be seen as being of a Tourist nature? It seems likely that it could be and the Landlord could be fined in that case also.
Should the Landlord take their tenant by the hand to the Ayuntamientos office and make sure that they register inorder to be safe? It sounds extreme I know, but what other way is there of making sure that your tenant who is staying in your property is actually changing address and not just having an extended holiday. How could you show proof?
.... Q: What happens in cases in which the landlord does not what to deal with a tourist activity but rent privately his/her property short term?.
A: These owners can deal with rental agreement according to the Letting Contract Law or Civil Code (in these cases, according to Tourism Law, the tenant changes his address).
Quote from: fifi on April 27, 2013, 10:47:29 AM
Quote from: emmi on April 27, 2013, 09:15:17 AM
I was not questioning the morals of the advertisers, of course I understand the dilemma they face with having cost of a mortgage to cover.........I was alluding to the rental websites and the fact they either ignore or are not aware that their advertisers could be faced with huge fines and are not being informative.. The least they could do is have a brief summary of the facts on the site thus giving potential advertisers the choice of whether to risk the ad!!
After all, most financial advisors these days are obliged to inform investors that there are risks attached to most investment plans!
Hi Emmi, all of the main Holiday Rental websites are fully aware of the Canarian Laws. There is usually something similar to this (copied and pasted from Holiday lettings) in their terms and conditions.
( However, although we may provide the photograph or video, we do not warrant that we have conducted any inspection of the property. Advertiser shall be responsible for ensuring that it has all necessary rights, licences and authorisations to rent property.)
I forgot to mention that Lawyers from the three leading Rental websites were worried about being sued for lack of "Duty of care" and had discussions about this several months ago.
Quote from: Spike On Q on April 22, 2013, 18:34:20 PM
I suppose if you are so opposed to the current situation you could always stand as a prospective Member of Parliament or form a lobby group to change the policy. I don't think writing bits on the forum will effect any changes to the situation. As already pointed out the indigenous population seem to have little or no concerns at present so pressure to make changes to the legislation are unlikely unless the general population can be convinced any change would not just benefit a few foreign property owners trying to make a buck to the detriment of existing legal holiday providers
ALOTCA have done just what you suggested Paul and the ammendments to the current legislation are due in a few weeks time. There are no changes expected for Residential complexes but Villa owners depending on where their villa is situated may be able to apply for a licence. The situation for apartment owners on Tourist complexes may end up even more difficult than they are at present. We will have to just be patient and wait a few more weeks and see what the outcome is. Well done to Janet Anscombe and ALOTCA and the Tenerife Lawyers for all their valuable information.
( As already pointed out the indigenous population seem to have little or no concerns at present so pressure to make changes to the legislation are unlikely unless the general population can be convinced any change would not just benefit a few foreign property owners trying to make a buck to the detriment of existing legal holiday providers)
[/quote] from Spike
As you all know, I have been involved in this campaign from the beginning, and I have always said that it will not register in the minds of the people of Fuerteventura until it starts affecting their pockets. Isnt that always the case where ever you live?.
In Tenerife there was widespread support for the campaign from business owners, taxi men, bar and restaurant owners because they believed that they would lose business if private rentals were stopped.
Personally, I think that the only accommodation that would be missed in Fuerteventura is private villas. The likes of Alpharooms.com etc can easily cater for low cost apartment accommodation for DIY tourists and at a much cheaper price than a private owner could charge. My bungalow is on a complex where half of the units are privately owned and the other half are owned by a company. Bungalows are being let out for between nine and eleven euros a night through Easyjets website by the company according to a couple that I met who were staying there last week. Three of them stayed there for only four hundred euros including flights. How could a private owner compete with those kind of prices? Key money, mid week clean, end of stay clean, IBI Basuras, non rental taxes plus rental taxes for the period that the property is actually let out. Electricity and water charges and insurance. There is no profit to be made.....simple.
End of rant.....but ....the moral of the story is....think twice before buying a property with the view to letting it out. The Islands are Autonamous which means that they can change the Spanish laws whenever they like and frequently do .....to suit themselves. Fair play to them ....but it doesnt suit my pocket. :D :D :D :D
Most people who bought property on the island over the last 15 years or so weren't looking to make bucketfuls of cash but just to hopefully earn enough to ensure the property paid its way. Council taxes, general maintenance, and maybe a meal out on the odd occassion. I don't think the effect of this foolish legislation will be noticed by the myriad of business's that it will hit until its too late. By then those responsible for implimenting it will be long gone, undoubtedly with a nice fat wad in their back pocket. Effectively they have put up a large sign saying that small private investment is no longer wanted on the island and i do think they will seriously regret it in the long term if not the short.
Another problem they may encounter is that in my experience there are far better destinations than Fuerteventura for 5 star hotel based holidays, especially All Inclusive, and i dont believe its a forgone conclusion they are going to attract the clientelle they seem to think they are.
Still, its a bed of their own making and they will have to lie in it. Another rant over. :D
And yet, despite all of this, apartments are still being advertised for sale as "having exceptional rental potential".
http://goldacreestates.com/Property?Country=jandia+golf&AAL1=&Options=QuickFind&Back=1828034137&pricemin=min&pricemax=max&bedsmax=All&PType=All&furnished=&refcode= (http://goldacreestates.com/Property?Country=jandia+golf&AAL1=&Options=QuickFind&Back=1828034137&pricemin=min&pricemax=max&bedsmax=All&PType=All&furnished=&refcode=)
Sad really ... ... ...
Quote from: NorthernLights53 on May 12, 2013, 18:18:01 PM
And yet, despite all of this, apartments are still being advertised for sale as "having exceptional rental potential".
http://goldacreestates.com/Property?Country=jandia+golf&AAL1=&Options=QuickFind&Back=1828034137&pricemin=min&pricemax=max&bedsmax=All&PType=All&furnished=&refcode= (http://goldacreestates.com/Property?Country=jandia+golf&AAL1=&Options=QuickFind&Back=1828034137&pricemin=min&pricemax=max&bedsmax=All&PType=All&furnished=&refcode=)
Sad really ... ... ...
These agents are pretty despicable. They know the situation better than others, but still pedal their lies to punters.
Owning property has become a nightmare for so many. Folk are trapped between taking a risk with letting or default on the mortgages. Have a quick look at one of the main property portals. There are still the same names renting out their apartments.....and they must all know the risk. They must be living under a cloud of constant nervousness.
The big issue is that as soon as you own a property, you become a victim (sucker) for taxation. You cannot hide or walk away. And the authorities make the rules more and more complex to sucker more and more euros out of your pocket. Especially now that Spain has been declared insolvent and people are advised to get their money out asap.
But it's also happening in the UK. A recent case has determined that you can no-longer rent out a property for holiday lets, unless you get planning permission for change of use. It's only a matter of time before fines start to follow over here.
This is just another form of corruption being imposed by bankers. They control everything and their impact is being felt in every corner of the World.
Any potential buyer looking at Fuerte at the moment....DON'T. DON'T DON'T !!!!!
The answer is go for a long-term rent. Don't become another victim of corrupt officials.
The blame for mis-selling lies squarely with the authorities who should have clamped down on agencies years ago even when the rental laws weren't being enforced. But hey why bother, just wait till they've all bought then hit them with the law and the fines to go with it. And when the complaints come in just say you should have researched it better,knowing full well every estate agent and solicitor on the island was complicit in the cover up , agents for actively promoting rentals and solicitors for conveniently not mentioning it may be unlawful in case they lost their conveyancing fees.
I'd say its a great time to buy if you are using it for your own retirement or you are just fortunate enough not to have to rent. I've seen property on the market they are virtually giving away.
I bought my property as an existing rental 'business' some years back, with a view to subsidising the substantial mortgage until I was able to retire. Not for profit but just to help with the costs.
I'm now no longer able to rent out and have had to sell my house in the UK to find the cash to pay the mortgage.
I was meticulous in enquiring with estate agents and solicitors as to whether I was in the clear as there have been many stories in 'Holiday Homes from Hell' programs regarding Spain. The amount of money that I've pumped into that mortgage could have paid for several dozen world cruises.
I've had a quick poll in work and found a couple of people who never stay in hotels but will be going to Florida in future. The sort of person who rents a house is not going to be diverted into a hotel by these regulations.
Hi RVEEE, really sad to hear your plight, we too checked every possible angle but were lied to from start to finish, there is no doubt that the authorities encouraged this because they made money from every property purchase. I have also asked numerous people if they would go back to staying in Hotels or package holidays and the answer is always NO, you either like that kind of holiday or you don't. The sad thing is that like the recent changes to the Coastal Laws these laws will probably be changed one day when they realise the damage it causes to the local economy. Also for those people who think that "stopping a few rental properties won't make much difference" there are over 800 such properties listed for Fuerteventura on just 1 website alone! People seem to forget that apart from the money the guests spend during their stay that the owners are paying local authority taxes, community bills, as well as spending a fortune in shops such as NortySur, Armas., Rocassa etc., as things need replacing on a regular basis. :-[
I have just came back from a weeks holiday on the Island I was talking with a couple of old mates who both rent three villas out between them, one of them reckons his solicitor recently told him to ignore the law and plead ignorant if he gets caught, the solicitor reckons getting caught is highly unlikely. Their villas are fully booked up until October and both are advertising on the internet. Read into that what you will, I don't rent my villa out, be interesting to see what happens in the long run.
That's exactly what we were told by our Lawyer. Went to see him last year to ask why he had told us in writing that we were allowed to rent out our property, he basically said that it had "kind of" been common knowledge that this law didn't work for Fuerteventura and at that time nobody thought it would ever be put into practice. He also thinks it would be a disaster for the economy (and his pockets)! :o
Perhaps getting caught is highly unlikely, but it's a hefty fine , and a lot of worry if you are one of the unlucky ones.
Pleading ignorance to the law is no defence unfortunately. And the fines are imposed automatically, they don't have to take you to court to prove the offence. To prevent your property being embargoed, you have to pay the fine upfront or lodge the money with the court during the appeal process. So it is a pretty bad situation if you get caught, though up to now the inspectors have been much less busy in Fuerte than on the other islands.
Doubt very much if this will be the last assault on foriegn home owners. I have read that Malta has a different price for utilities , ie water and electricity, for expats and non residents. Yes you've guessed it, much higher than for residents. It is apparently being challenged by the EU. I think we should maybe keep our fingers crossed it is eventually deemed unlawful as i wouldn't mind betting Spain is watching the situation very closely.
I fully expect us to leave the EU in the near future and without the protection of the slightly erratic equality laws i also expect the Spanish to take full advantage of the fact.
Hope i'm wrong.
OK big news this morning, cut and pasted from Janet Anscombe's website in Tenerife:
First illegal lettings appeals reach Court
Published 20 May 2013
The first appeals of fines issued under the Plan Especial went to Court last Thursday. Before the hearing, however, the judge called Alotca lawyer José Escobedo and the Government's lawyer into a meeting. Also present were a legal assistant from Tenerife Litigation (the office of the two Alotca lawyers, José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz), and the two chief Turismo inspectors.
Before I talk about the meeting I would like to clarify two things that have been the subject of much discussion and rumour. First, the judge confirmed that Canarian law is valid, and applicable, to these cases of fines against individuals for private holiday rentals. Secondly, he confirmed that previous judgments concerning "prior authorization" have no relevance at all to them.
The judge requested the meeting because he had certain things to say in general terms about the specific cases being heard and others like them still to come to hearing. These were that he considered the fine amount to be disproportionate (as I've previously posted, proportionality of punishment is written into the Spanish constitution); that Alotca lawyers had prepared a strong and detailed defence; that the Government nonetheless had a case that could be developed during a hearing; that such cases would take a considerable time to hear; and there were so many of them that Court time would be inordinate. As a result, he had consulted with other judges and it had been decided that all cases would be heard by that same judge through the one Court, number 4 in Santa Cruz.
Having made these comments, the judge then asked that a class action be formed for an out of Court settlement which would apply to all the appeals underway at present. Since Alotca has the vast majority of cases to be heard, and was behind the first appeals to be heard, the class action is to be conducted through Alotca, with cases being handled by other lawyers forming part of the Alotca action. The settlement will require a document to be signed by the appellants acknowledging that they had been in error, that this error had resulted in a breach of the law, that they accept a fine as punishment, and, naturally, confirm that there will be no future breaches. The document will stand as a legal judgment so that even with an out of Court settlement, any future fines arising from continued letting would be at the second offence level of up to €30,000.
The Government has been given a month to liaise with José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz to negotiate the settlement, involving the final document to be signed and the level of the fine: the judge said that in his opinion, it would reasonably be in the region of €5,000. The Court provided José Escobedo with a list of all cases involving other lawyers, and any appellant with a non-Alotca lawyer who wishes to join the class action must instruct their lawyer urgently to contact Tenerife Litigation so that their cases can be presented to Court as part of that action. Those who are already with one of the two Alotca lawyers need do nothing.
There is a video recording of Thursday's meeting which I watched this afternoon. I will have a copy uploaded onto my website as soon as it can be transposed into a file in a format that I can upload. I am dependent on the help of others to do this, so please bear with me.
José and Santiago ask that any enquiries come via me to free them up to get on with this work. Evidently they expect to hear directly from lawyers of those who have been fined and who are to join the class action. In terms of general questions, however, they ask people to email me. If anyone has just received a fine, or does so over the next few weeks, please also contact me urgently to find out what Alotca lawyers will need so that time is not wasted with them answering basic initial questions.
On a wider basis, Alotca is about to start negotiations with the OCU (organización de consumidores y usuarios), the Spanish Consumers Organization, which is preparing to fight the recently announced national proposals to limit tourist letting throughout Spain. The fight is very far from over, but with regard to the fines issued so far, we at last have clarity.
I have just checked with Janet and owners fined on Fuerteventura can also join the class action to hopefully get their fines reduced from 18,000 euros to 5,000 euros.
Anyone affected needs to email Janet direct, her website is: http://www.janetanscombe.com/ (http://www.janetanscombe.com/) or ask their solicitors to get in touch with Tenerife Litigation so they can be added to the class action.
Hi Peejay, thanks for the info, very interesting, looks like they are starting to realise that getting fines paid by people is not going to be that easy. The judgement seems to assume that people were renting their properties in the knowledge that they were flouting the Law, I would like to know what happens if you refuse to pay the fine on the basis that you asked all the right questions regarding renting but were lied to by every party involved, in my eyes that's not the same as pleading "ignorance of the Law" so I wonder where we would stand. :'(
Quote from: lander on May 19, 2013, 16:38:42 PM
That's exactly what we were told by our Lawyer. Went to see him last year to ask why he had told us in writing that we were allowed to rent out our property, he basically said that it had "kind of" been common knowledge that this law didn't work for Fuerteventura and at that time nobody thought it would ever be put into practice. He also thinks it would be a disaster for the economy (and his pockets)! :o
If you have it in writing i would suggest that you contact one of the large law firms on the mainland & see if it is possible to sue your lawyer.
Bobbie that's exactly what we would do if or when we get a fine, although said Lawyer has told us that he would represent us if that happened! In the meantime I'm just hoping that they see sense and change this Law, issue Licences, make an annual charge for them and make money rather than risk driving lot's of owners (and their money) away ???
Don't think it's so much paying the fines. They add interest if you don't pay immediately and will embargo your bank account and if necessary seize your property to recover the money. It's more the risk of completely paralysing the court system with potentially thousands of appeals. If you have proof in writing that you were lied to it could be worth suing. Can't see them changing the legislation any time soon, it's a nice little earner 7,000 cases x 5,000 euros is 35 million euros! Of course not all the cases will be proven, but even so, kerching!
Not sure i see the point of seizing a property you cant sell or get any immediate monetary gain from. sounds a bit of a minefield. I'm not too sure they'd get anywhere near 5000 euros out of most peoples spanish bank accounts either, they certainly wouldn't out of mine. Just enough trickling in and out to keep the place running. Could be they'd be biting off more than they can chew in that direction. Has that actually happened to anyone here or on tenerife?. (ere we go again)
I think the Tenerife Litigation solicitors working for the majority of people fined managed to come to an agreement with the authorities whereby those people fined deposited the fine amount with the court while they appealed the fine - thereby preventing the risk of embargo. If people's appeals were successful or they had the fine reduced they would then get all or some of the money back. It is shocking though that the fines can be raised automatically and you are expected to pay them before the conclusion of any appeal process. No such thing as innocent until proven guilty, in this instance it seems to be the other way round. And of course all the time the courts have your money, presumably they are gaining the interest on it. Another nice little earner with thousands of cases.
Quote from: lander on May 21, 2013, 17:12:49 PM
Bobbie that's exactly what we would do if or when we get a fine, although said Lawyer has told us that he would represent us if that happened! In the meantime I'm just hoping that they see sense and change this Law, issue Licences, make an annual charge for them and make money rather than risk driving lot's of owners (and their money) away ???
If you get a fine you would have to pay it as has been proven in the latest appeal courts, i think your lawyer would back out very quickly as he could face prosecution & the lose of his licence to practice law as he knowingly gave false information.
Quote from: stedge on May 21, 2013, 21:55:32 PM
Not sure i see the point of seizing a property you cant sell or get any immediate monetary gain from. sounds a bit of a minefield. I'm not too sure they'd get anywhere near 5000 euros out of most peoples spanish bank accounts either, they certainly wouldn't out of mine. Just enough trickling in and out to keep the place running. Could be they'd be biting off more than they can chew in that direction. Has that actually happened to anyone here or on tenerife?. (ere we go again)
[/quote
The embargo on a property will remain there until the property is sold or inherited at which point the money owed will be automatically passed to the issuer of the embargo via the notary. as far as an embargo on a bank account is concerned they will take a percentage each month of the monies that are trickling in & out until the debt is paid no matter how long it takes. Oh & don't forget they can charge interest of up to 20% (B***T**DS)
They appear to have all routes covered. . However it seems a lot of time and effort to go through to claw in what is now a measly 5000 euros. When the fines were a gargantuan 18000 or more it would have been well worth it, but over time it will more than likely cost them more in admin fees and associated wages of the enforcercing officialdom. And lets not forget its not quite over yet on the appeal front.I reckon if only a fraction of people mucked them about they would end up out of pocket. And glad i am to say so.
Stedge, they might think they have it covered, but how many people are actually going to pay the fines? Like you say most owners only trickle money into their bank to cover bills, a lot of properties are in negative equity so they wouldn't get money from that either, but it would take an awful lot of time and money pursuing fines. Most owners I have spoken to (and it's quite a lot) are so fed up with this situation that if it came to a fine they would just give them the keys to their (worthless) properties and tell them where to stick it! :-[
Problem is under Spanish Mortgage Law you are still liable for the full outstanding mortgage amount even if you are in negative equity or hand the keys back or whatever. And if you have property in the UK they can go to court to seize that to pay what you owe. The debt can hang over you for the rest of your life basically. Sometimes you can agree a Dacion en Pago with the bank, to write off the debt if you hand back the keys, but the banks are under no obligation to do this and have been reluctant to do it due to the number of people getting into trouble with their mortgages. The EU are unhappy with Spanish Mortgage Law, but I don't think they have moved to make them change it yet.
Also, if you hand back the property or sell it and don't pay the fine, they transfer the debt onto you as an individual and may try to come after you in the UK for payment.
It's worth bearing in mind that copies of your internet advert alone are no longer deemed sufficient evidence to prove you are illegally letting.
Now teams of so-called Tourism Quality Surveyors are visiting properties and asking guests to complete and sign a questionnaire which basically contains all the evidence they need of holiday letting, so they can raise a fine.
This has been going on in Tenerife and they have apparently visited Playa Blanca as well, but no reports of them in Fuerte as yet. It is much easier and cost effective for them to hit Tenerife, especially if the level of fines is reduced to 5,000 euros for a first offence. But I would imagine they will hit the main resorts here too at some point.
I'm just hoping that at the end of it all when the fines have been whittled down as far as they can go, and with the maximum amount of opposition, and all the hard work it will entail to try and get it it might just prove an unworthwhile goose chase. And if it does it will be a very deserving and fitting end to it all.
Surely if they have inspectors that call at properties and ask if you are a tourist who is letting the property, you could just claim to be a family member who is staying free of charge? How can any inspector prove that you have paid to let the property (as long as there is an agreement between the owner and the person letting the property that no money has changed hands)? Also I have seen an advertisment for an apartment on the golf course in Caleta where the rental is free, but you have to pay a cleaning fee. Is this someone who is trying to be clever and get around an actual rental fee?
So - you are letting your property to a complete stranger who has seen your ad. on a bona fidea web site. After they've made the booking you tell them that if any government official calls whilst they are in residence to check if the property is being let legally and complies with various safety and other regulations they should lie through their back teeth on your behalf - mmmmm I wonder would you?
No I'm not the one letting the property out, I'm the one who is renting the property from an owner. And yes I would be prepared to tell any inspector that I'm a family member who is just staying at the property free of charge. I have just arranged to hire a villa and an apartment from someone who owns both and if they asked me to say that I was a family member then yes that is what I would do. If this means that I can still rent a property (short term) and not have to stay in a hotel then I would gladly do it.
yep i would and i'd also want to know why they were knocking on my door wasting my valuable holiday time trying to get me to squeal on an owner who has provided me with such wonderful acommodation . Theres only so many 'safety regulations' you can impose on an apartment, Safety regulations the industry has been happy to not worry about for the last 25 years. I doubt there will be any more electrocutions, drownings or cuts and bruises than there were before the imposition of 'regulations' and inspectors making a nuisance of themselves. So yep i'd lie through my back teeth because i value the right to rent your own property and also because the apartment i'm in is probably no different dangerwise from the countless ones i've stayed in since i was old enough to go abroard.. and thats a long time ago
Totally agree Stedge..
I've heard they ask you lots of personal questions about the owner, as you would presumably know all about them if you were a genuine friend or family. Regardless though if some inspector type rocked up while I was on hols and started asking lots of questions, I would tell them to do one. But some people have felt intimidated and made to fill in the questionnaire, dobbing in the owner. A sad state of affairs all round.
Alotca-associated lawyer for illegal letting cases in eastern province
21 June 2013
There is now an Alotca-associated firm of lawyers in the eastern province of the Canaries for those who have been fined for illegal letting and who would like a local firm to handle their case rather than deal with Tenerife-based firms. Iustitia is based in Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, and is a firm headed by Margarita Ramos Topham, who speaks English and German. She can deal with cases in any of the eastern province islands, i.e. Gran Canaria, Fuerteventura, and Lanzarote. Iustitia's office is in Calle Mendizábal, 37, 3ºA, 35001 Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, landline + 34 928 33 42 15, mobile + 34 654 32 33 17, email mramos@iustitia.es. The website is www.iustitia.es (http://www.iustitia.es).
Copied from Janet Anscombes website.